Masada and Maccabeans in Honor of the Queen

Hi,

I am just reading Honor of the Queen. Masada and the Maccabeans are Jewish historical figures so I'm wondering why they have been cast as the "bad guys".

bradman wrote:Hi,

I am just reading Honor of the Queen. Masada and the Maccabeans are Jewish historical figures so I'm wondering why they have been cast as the "bad guys".

But THEY have NOT been cast as the "bad guys". Bad people will often try to cast themselves in a good light and may steal a historical name to suggest they are misunderstood.

tlb wrote:

bradman wrote:Hi,

I am just reading Honor of the Queen. Masada and the Maccabeans are Jewish historical figures so I'm wondering why they have been cast as the "bad guys".

But THEY have NOT been cast as the "bad guys". Bad people will often try to cast themselves in a good light and may steal a historical name to suggest they are misunderstood.

Agreed, they are just a group of fundamentalists who have reached back into religious history for legitimacy. They internally are equating themselves with those historical groups - externally, they are only titularly like those groups (except for their fervor).

bradman wrote:Hi,

I am just reading Honor of the Queen. Masada and the Maccabeans are Jewish historical figures so I'm wondering why they have been cast as the "bad guys".

Nothing I've read in the series (and I think I've consumed almost everything) so far suggests that the real, historical Masadans or Maccabeans are portrayed as "bad guys".

The people in the novel (in a fictional society about 2000 years into the future) are religious fundamentalists and extremists, who try to legitimate their cruelties by every means. So, of course, they also abuse historical names to gain legitimacy.

Similar to "The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation", for example, or then the 3rd Empire propagated by Hitler.

They twisted their own, "Christian" roots even so far that they don't recognize Jesus any more, because if Jesus had been the Lord and Saviour, technology (which they reject) would never have evolved as far as it did, after Jesus had been on earth.

So, of course, they abuse terms from the old testament and Jewish scriptures.

In my eyes, that doesn't disparage the Jewisch religion, nor Israel or the historic figures of Masada and Maccabeus in any way. It does, however, clearly disparage religious fundamentalism and inhumane sectarianism. And when I see some religous fundamentalists currently active on this planet, this portrait of fundamentalism is not even exaggerating that much, it's frighteningly realistic.

Just another thought: For the Masadans, they and Maccabeus are "the good guys who fulfil gods will", so they don't even regard their own usage of those workds as disrespectful, it's their (twisted) admiration of them which makes them reuse those words.

bradman wrote:Hi,

I am just reading Honor of the Queen. Masada and the Maccabeans are Jewish historical figures so I'm wondering why they have been cast as the "bad guys".

Hi Bradman. I must admit I wasn't aware Masada and the Maccabeans, and by implication Grayson, were officially (by decree of the author) Jewish. Other than the historical reference to the namesake. Any textev on that?

However, the Masadans and Maccabeans were not originally cast in a bad light. They cast themselves in a bad light as offshoots of religions quite often do.

At any rate, how can you say that? I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Grayson certainly has not been cast in a bad light. Grayson and the Church of Humanity Unchained (CHU) represents whatever the founding religion had been. Masada is an offshoot of their original faith who have become extremists whose beliefs have become so poisoned and corrupted that they have lost their way. Effectively, Masada has become a religious cult that is no different than Scientology which was formed by Ron. L. Hubbard, or the Children of God founded by David Berg. Thus, they have cast themselves in a bad light. There are several other religious cults. But they are simply cults who hide behind religion. Let me Google religious cults. Aha!


https://www.storypick.com/dangerous-cults/

penny wrote:Grayson certainly has not been cast in a bad light. Grayson and the Church of Humanity Unchained represents whatever the founding religion had been. Masada is an offshoot of their original faith who have become extremists whose beliefs have become so poisoned that they have lost their way. Effectively, Masada has become a religious cult that is no different than Scientology which was formed by Ron. L. Hubbard, or the Children of God founded by David Berg. Thus, they have cast themselves in a bad light.

The arrival on Grayson forced a doctrinal change on the Church of Humanity Unchained, because the heavy metal environment meant that the colonists could not forego technology. The people who were transplanted to Masada (no reason given for that name) were the ones most uncomfortable with that change. In that sense, the people who remained at Grayson were the offshoot. However it is certainly true that that the fundamentalists were fanatical in their mission to eliminate the deviationists at Grayson, which paradoxically lead to their acceptance of technology to further that end.

I have seen it suggested that the litigious Church of Scientology was formed by Ron L. Hubbard as a way to take advantage of the tax laws of the US and to avoid prosecutions for teaching medicine without a license. I would suggest one difference is that Scientologists are not generally murderous fanatics.

penny wrote:Hi Bradman. I must admit I wasn't aware Masada and the Maccabeans, and by implication Grayson, were officially (by decree of the author) Jewish. Other than the historical reference to the namesake. Any textev on that?

What?

No, they're quire clearly Christian. They have a religion founded on a Holy Trinity of the Tester, the Intercessor, and the Consoler. Their calendar still counts "anno domini" too.

The historical references are just that: references. The names may have been chosen by their founders for a reason, but that doesn't mean their logic in choosing it was sound. Or, even if it was, that subsequent action since the naming kept them in line with the guiding principle. The planet of Masada had an established government for much longer than the historical Fortress of Masada existed.

However, the Masadans and Maccabeans were not originally cast in a bad light. They cast themselves in a bad light as offshoots of religions quite often do.

Indeed they did, to us.

But to themselves, they did not. They saw their actions as keeping with their faith and doctrine, as most zealots do.

At any rate, how can you say that? I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Grayson certainly has not been cast in a bad light. Grayson and the Church of Humanity Unchained (CHU) represents whatever the founding religion had been. Masada is an offshoot of their original faith who have become extremists whose beliefs have become so poisoned and corrupted that they have lost their way. Effectively, Masada has become a religious cult that is no different than Scientology which was formed by Ron. L. Hubbard, or the Children of God founded by David Berg. Thus, they have cast themselves in a bad light. There are several other religious cults. But they are simply cults who hide behind religion. Let me Google religious cults. Aha!

No need to provide evidence. That's not the point. We're not discussing whether they were a cult that had grown extremist.

The point is whether they thought that of themselves. Cults and extremists don't think that of themselves. The CHU branch on Masada saw itself as keeping with the original teachings of Rev. Austin Grayson, instead of the heretical and twisted version of the branch that stayed on Grayson after they were expelled. In their eyes, the Graysons were the extremists.

penny wrote:Hi Bradman. I must admit I wasn't aware Masada and the Maccabeans, and by implication Grayson, were officially (by decree of the author) Jewish. Other than the historical reference to the namesake. Any textev on that?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:What?

No, they're quire clearly Christian. They have a religion founded on a Holy Trinity of the Tester, the Intercessor, and the Consoler. Their calendar still counts "anno domini" too.

The historical references are just that: references. The names may have been chosen by their founders for a reason, but that doesn't mean their logic in choosing it was sound. Or, even if it was, that subsequent action since the naming kept them in line with the guiding principle. The planet of Masada had an established government for much longer than the historical Fortress of Masada existed.

Actually, the "Moderates" on Grayson may be thought of as Christian; but that is no longer true of the "Faithful" on Masada, from HotQ:

Chapter 1 wrote:It saved Grayson, but the Faithful have grown more intolerant, not less. There are a lot of points about their so-called religion that I can’t get definitive information on, but I do know they’ve chopped the entire New Testament out of their Bibles because if Christ had really been the Messiah, technology never would have arisen on Old Earth, they wouldn’t have been kicked off Grayson, and Woman would have been put in her proper place throughout the human community.”

Honor looked at him, too bemused to disbelieve any longer, and he shook his head once more.

“Unfortunately, they also seem to believe God expects them to fix all the things that are wrong with the universe, and they’re still set on making Grayson toe their doctrinal line.

If they have thrown away the New Testament and consider themselves the Chosen People to fix what is wrong, then I think we better stop right there before we go astray; because they are NOT Jewish (I do not believe that the Jews were ever expected by God to fix all that was wrong in the Universe).

The people of (leadership) Masada chose an interesting name for their planet, probably picking up the story as themselves has having retreated there to defend The Religion from the "heretics" who had defeated them on Grayson. It comes down to two versions version of what the Church of Humanity Unchained should be after having had to survive and begin to rebuild after Grayson proved to be such a poor home.
From the books, the winners of that civil war remained on Grayson but GAVE the defeated the capacity to move- with supplies and what tech they would accept- to the better planet and worship as they saw fit.
In the same manner, the man who created the organization calling itself Maccabeans, is casting he and his followers as freedom fighters looking to return Grayson to the True Path as seen by the people who lost their civil war and now will not rest till they bring the the heretics back to The True Religion.
That the Masadan's have been routinely attacking Grayson for a long time with nuclear bombs hitting cities (which the leadership of Grayson has NOT been doing back in retaliation) to compel the current population to accept the Masadan's version of the religion seems perfectly just to the Masada's....all that matters to them is that they recover Grayson and force the survivors to accept their version of the religion.
Sound like anything your have heard recently?

They chose names that represented great deeds and courage in Earth's history. That doesn't mean they follow a particular religion.