Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington

Why didn't Houseman sue Honor for assault? She might have been court-martialed and dishonorably discharged for assaulting a civilian. I cannot imagine that Houseman's reputation has not severely suffered; and of course the embarrassment, let alone the physical pain, of being hit by a Sphinxian-bred terminator.

There are laws protecting civilians from the wrath of naval officers. At any rate, when I read that passage I thought Honor's career would be over. Am I correct that it was essentially Houseman's good will that he didn't pursue legal action against Honor?

https://ucmj.us/what-happens-when-a-sol ... -civilian/

penny wrote:Why didn't Houseman sue Honor for assault? She might have been court-martialed and dishonorably discharged for assaulting a civilian. I cannot imagine that Houseman's reputation has not suffered; and of course the embarrassment let alone the physical pain of being hit by a Sphinxian-bred terminator.

There are laws protecting civilians from the wrath of naval officers. At any rate, when I read that passage I thought Honor's career would be over. Am I correct that it was essentially Houseman's good will that he didn't pursue legal action against Honor?

Honor was punished for the incident and the Queen rewarded her for it.

I imagine the reason Houseman never sued is that it would make him look bad. He is giving an illegal order out of cowardice and Honor is defending the honor of the Queen. In a society that allows dueling there is an almost exaggerated sense of honor and every person in that society must be ready to defend their honor to be of worth. So a coward cannot be a person of worth by those standards. The things that Honor said to him have made their way across the Navy, to go to trial would spread them across all society.

Note that if she were to repeat in a public forum what she had said to him in private, he would be forced to challenge her to a duel because of the standards of high society.

Note also that we don't know Manticore's laws on this.
But also for this purpose, Houseman isn't quite a civilian, he's a Manticoran government officer.

So it's possible that since both parties were in some sense acting as agents of the government, and the whole incident was already reviewed and punishments issued (as it happens, to both parties) by the government that Manticoran law precludes either taking it up in a civil court. we just don't know. (But I could see the government not wanting to have its decisions in effect relitigated in civil court)

Also don't forget that Houseman was deeply in the wrong and making threats to his superiors. (Both Ambassador Langley and Honor were above him and he could not legally give either orders -- yet he was threatening both's carriers due to his "friends in high places" if they didn't do what he wanted) Even in our UCMJ that would probably be a mitigating factor.

Also, when that web page talks about assaulting a civilian they probably having extremely serious consequences they probably mean more than one (admittedly strong) slap to the face.

Who knows what the situation is a couple of thousand years hence, but from my own experience. There is a big difference between a civilian working with Defense, and a Defense Civilian. As the latter I was in the chain of command, having Colonels and equivalents reporting to me, while I reported to a Major General.
I assume that in that situation Houseman was subject to military discipline. In which case he was lucky to get off as lightly as he did.

What is the actual jurisdiction?

Manty military? Manty civilian courts? It happened on Grayson, so do they have jurisdiction?

No matter which court has jurisdiction, Houseman couldn't win in the end.

Oh, the courts could find in his favor but he would still lose when the circumstances and his actions came to light.

Pardon my exasperation. Nobody in the forum is responsible for my acute flabergastion, caused by trying to swallow pills so large that they summon unsafe amounts of gastric acids for digestion. The two largest pills are given as explanations for:

1. Why entities in the HV will not commit EE violations.


2. Why people don't simply turn down challenges to duel. Come on! Who should give a shit about what somebody thinks of them for not choosing to draw on Clint Eastwood. Even if you are a gunslinger yourself. But if you are not, why throw your life away simply because people will “talk.” So???

I am not asking for a rehash of that idiotic hard to swallow huge pill of an explanation. Spare me! Because nobody is going to get me to swallow a pill claiming that someone who is as afraid as Pavel Young is of dying, or even Reginald Houseman, would give a ratsass about what will be written in the faxes.

Regardless, in Houseman's case, none of it should even come close to applying because he is working in an official capacity for the government. He is a civilian working in an official capacity for the government. Of anyone, he should have the official protection of the government. Civilians work for the government in official capacities all of the time. It is a common occurrence. Can you imagine the top engineer at Lockheed Martin being backhanded by the biggest, toughest Admiral in the Navy while on an important trip to South Korea?*

It is wrong guys. Plain old wrong. Not to mention, illegal. The principle of civilian control of the military places ultimate authority over U.S. armed services in the hands of civilian leadership, with civilian responsibility and control of the military balanced between the executive and legislative branches of the government. —internet

If a member of any branch of the military is allowed to assault a civilian, then what we have is total anarchy. What's worse is that Houseman is a politician! A society can ill afford to have its military busting civilian heads. Or politician’s heads. And certainly not politicians who are temporarily civilian-turned diplomats! If Houseman was out of order because he broke a direct order given by the Queen, then he should have been arrested. Not assaulted. At any rate, Houseman should not have to worry about having to challenge Harrington to a duel to get justice. The court system should provide that. This case IS NOT a personal matter. As it was with Young and Paul.

*The US is currently having production issues with its aircraft carriers. South Korea seems to be able to mimic Grayson’s production abilities.

penny wrote:Pardon my exasperation. Nobody in the forum is responsible for my acute flabergastion, caused by trying to swallow pills so large that they summon unsafe amounts of gastric acids for digestion. The two largest pills are given as explanations for:

1. Why entities in the HV will not commit EE violations.


2. Why people don't simply turn down challenges to duel. Come on! Who should give a shit about what somebody thinks of them for not choosing to draw on Clint Eastwood. Even if you are a gunslinger yourself. But if you are not, why throw your life away simply because people will “talk.” So???

I am not asking for a rehash of that idiotic hard to swallow huge pill of an explanation. Spare me! Because nobody is going to get me to swallow a pill claiming that someone who is as afraid as Pavel Young is of dying, or even Reginald Houseman, would give a ratsass about what will be written in the faxes.

You are right about all this, once you reject the importance of dueling and "honor" in the author's books. Klaus Hauptman should have been able to threaten Honor's parents in OBS without Honor having any legal recourse. Paul Tankersley should have ignored the insults made about Honor. William Fitzclarence, Lord Burdette, should have simply been executed without being able to challenge Honor as the Protector's Champion. Denver Summervale should still be a Marine.

Feel free to skip this next part, since you have no intention of accepting it.

Do note however that it was NOT the threat of things "written in the faxes" that motivated Pavel Young. In a society that "worshipped" honor and status, the loss of honor ends your status and your place at the table with all the "best" people. Although Pavel probably would not lose his title, he might well lose his seat in the House of Lords. He would certainly lose his membership in the Conservative Association. He would rather take the chance of killing Honor, than to live the rest of his life ostracized and in shame. This is the same fear that caused Elvis Santino to take his fleet to its destruction, rather than fleeing and so facing possible scorn.

Right now Reginald Houseman is just a joke in the Navy (both of Manticore and Grayson); but if he tried to take Honor to court over the slap, then the words and circumstances of that slap would become public record. This would expose him as a coward and therefore not a man of honor. That puts him in the same dilemma as Pavel Young, exposure would strip him of his position and status. Only blood can wash away that stain.

When the founding fathers of the US talked about their "sacred honor", that was an indication that they lived in a society that practiced dueling.

penny wrote:1. Why entities in the HV will not commit EE violations.

Because that brings EVERYONE down on you. What's the point of winning against your enemy if you're not there afterwards to benefit from it?

2. Why people don't simply turn down challenges to duel. Come on! Who should give a shit about what somebody thinks of them for not choosing to draw on Clint Eastwood. Even if you are a gunslinger yourself. But if you are not, why throw your life away simply because people will “talk.” So???

I am not asking for a rehash of that idiotic hard to swallow huge pill of an explanation. Spare me! Because nobody is going to get me to swallow a pill claiming that someone who is as afraid as Pavel Young is of dying, or even Reginald Houseman, would give a ratsass about what will be written in the faxes.

Please read Toll of Honor. There are sections that explain both Paul Tankersley and Pavel Young's viewpoints on why they both thought they had to go through with the challenge once accepted. Since it's a spoiler (or not, since this was really already described in FoD), I won't discuss it here.

It doesn't matter what you'd do in their condition. You and I are not in their shoes. It only matters what they thought the consequences would be for them and, in Paul's case, other people he cared about.

Regardless, in Houseman's case, none of it should even come close to applying because he is working in an official capacity for the government. He is a civilian working in an official capacity for the government. Of anyone, he should have the official protection of the government. Civilians work for the government in official capacities all of the time. It is a common occurrence. Can you imagine the top engineer at Lockheed Martin being backhanded by the biggest, toughest Admiral in the Navy while on an important trip to South Korea?*

The fact that he's working for the government does not absolve him from having done stupid and illegal things. He did try to emit an illegal order.

Yes, he could have sued Honor for assault, but then she gets to present her case to explain her frame of mind at the time, and his career dies with it. I don't think it's worth it.

Moreover, his allies wouldn't let him because they knew he had overstepped his bounds. He was far more useful for him as a victim than disgraced.

It is wrong guys. Plain old wrong. Not to mention, illegal. The principle of civilian control of the military places ultimate authority over U.S. armed services in the hands of civilian leadership, with civilian responsibility and control of the military balanced between the executive and legislative branches of the government. —internet

If a member of any branch of the military is allowed to assault a civilian, then what we have is total anarchy. What's worse is that Houseman is a politician! A society can ill afford to have its military busting civilian heads. Or politician’s heads. And certainly not politicians who are temporarily civilian-turned diplomats! If Houseman was out of order because he broke a direct order given by the Queen, then he should have been arrested. Not assaulted. At any rate, Houseman should not have to worry about having to challenge Harrington to a duel to get justice. The court system should provide that. This case IS NOT a personal matter. As it was with Young and Paul.

Who says any member of the military is allowed to assault a civilian? No one is arguing Honor had the right to do what she did. She was reprimanded for it.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Who says any member of the military is allowed to assault a civilian? No one is arguing Honor had the right to do what she did. She was reprimanded for it.

Yes- you can be wrong without being career-endingly wrong.

She was wrong.
He was wrong first.
Both got reprimanded / punished.



A Marine punching a civilian with no provocation is going to be treated differently to one who punched a civilian that was screaming in the Marine's face, and it would be treated yet differently again if one got caught up in a bar brawl with civilians.
The Marine would be wrong in all three situations, but the mitigating circumstances (if any) differ and the punishment would therefore presumably differ as well.

penny wrote:It is wrong guys. Plain old wrong. Not to mention, illegal. The principle of civilian control of the military places ultimate authority over U.S. armed services in the hands of civilian leadership, with civilian responsibility and control of the military balanced between the executive and legislative branches of the government. —internet

The principle of civilian control has nothing to do with the situation. It does not mean that every soldier has to defer to every civilian, instead it means that the chain of command is headed by a civilian: the Secretary of Defense and the President in the US and the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Queen in Manticore. The legislature is mainly involved through budgeting; but just as the House of Lords could put Honor on half-pay, the US Congress could recently block promotions.

As everyone is saying both of them were wrong and both of them were punished. Afterward the Queen rewarded Honor, which somewhat mitigated her punishment.