In the honorverse are imperial style goverments more stable?

especially once you reach multi-stellar size?

We all know what happened to Haven. There's the Silesian Confederacy. And finally the administrative mess that is the Solarian League. I will grant that with two of those the Messan Alignment was stiring the pot. But while as far as i know it's not mention anywhere i kinda get the feeling that they were taking advantge of pre-existing conditions. And even beyond that we know that they try to stir the pot in Manticore, and i think in the Andermani Empire.

Puidwen wrote:especially once you reach multi-stellar size?

Does Manticore really count as an Imperial style government; since it is a constitutional monarchy, the same as Great Britain? I will grant that the Andermani Empire is closer to what you meant. I think that you need something like a royal veto to be an Imperial style rule.

I don't think so. You need a decentralized system. 6000 mile screwdrivers don't work well even though they are beloved by Politicians and Flag officers who decry the lack of imitative by junior officers. 6000 light year screwdrivers are worse.

Some thing like China or the Soviet imperialism, where all major decisions are made by Xi or by the Chairman, are not viable. You have a multi-month time lag between 'bad event' and the prescriptive solution that must be exactly followed arrives. The prescriptive solution is unlikely to still be relevant.

You need to have decision makers much closer to the action who have resources and permission to use them without further approval.

It might be worthwhile asking just what the OP means by "imperial style"

Historically, every great empire operated as you describe, with one exception - and Alexander's empire blew apart within ~30 minutes of his demise. To be fair, he didn't live long enough to get more than barely started on actually organising that mess he slapped together. Even another 10 years and all our long words might well be Greek rather than Latin.

You'll notice that the empires that survived long enough for radios and telephones to become general issue imploded pretty quickly thereafter. [The Ottomans didn't really even make it through the telegraph] Your extra-long screwdriver effect in action.

kzt wrote:I don't think so. You need a decentralized system. 6000 mile screwdrivers don't work well even though they are beloved by Politicians and Flag officers who decry the lack of imitative by junior officers. 6000 light year screwdrivers are worse.

Some thing like China or the Soviet imperialism, where all major decisions are made by Xi or by the Chairman, are not viable. You have a multi-month time lag between 'bad event' and the prescriptive solution that must be exactly followed arrives. The prescriptive solution is unlikely to still be relevant.

You need to have decision makers much closer to the action who have resources and permission to use them without further approval.

A rew points. The Honorverse creator tends to write more about monarchies than pure democracies, as in his other series.
Democracies don't lend themselves to a narrative as well as do monarchies, with either enlightened rulers or villains.
I would also question the statement that Manticore is the same as Great Britain, as the HV Elizabeth has much more power than did the GB Elizabeth.
Manticore has a tradition of encouraging isolated naval officers to make their own decisions.

Daryl wrote:I would also question the statement that Manticore is the same as Great Britain, as the HV Elizabeth has much more power than did the GB Elizabeth.

I can accept that the monarch in Manticore may have more power than the current British monarch; but Manticore is STILL a constitutional monarchy, not an autocracy in an Imperial mode. Queen, and then Empress, Victoria might have had as much power as the current Manticoran monarch.

One way this can be seen is that the budget is created and approved by the legislature. Even when the House of Lords was in control, that did not give additional power to the monarch.

Daryl wrote:A rew points. The Honorverse creator tends to write more about monarchies than pure democracies, as in his other series.
Democracies don't lend themselves to a narrative as well as do monarchies, with either enlightened rulers or villains.
I would also question the statement that Manticore is the same as Great Britain, as the HV Elizabeth has much more power than did the GB Elizabeth.
Manticore has a tradition of encouraging isolated naval officers to make their own decisions.

It's not so much that "Imperial Style" governments are more stable in the Honorverse, it's that this style allows for the reader to relate to a single character more easily as Daryl indicates, though having a clear central authority does help.

Any "good" government needs to balance the interlocking problems of Communication, Command & Control, Responsiveness, Accountability, and Loyalty (i.e., is the government/society worth supporting).

I expect that most multi-system governments in the Honorverse use a layered approach
Local Government body (Town/city/District/Sate/County) reporting to a System Government reporting into a
Intra-system Government (Sector, Quadrant, Area) reporting into an "Inter-System Government" with an on-overarching council or upper house.

Each of the layers has defined spheres of responsibility, with interlocking safety valves to balance the requirements.

In the Star Empire of Manticore you have:
Local government areas e.g., Harringtons one on Gryphon
System Governments i.e., The Manticore House of Commons/Lords
Quadrant Governments i.e., Talbott Quadrant
Imperial Government i.e., Imperial Parliament
Imperial Council - Head by the Empress

Garth 2 wrote:I expect that most multi-system governments in the Honorverse use a layered approach
Local Government body (Town/city/District/Sate/County) reporting to a System Government reporting into a
Intra-system Government (Sector, Quadrant, Area) reporting into an "Inter-System Government" with an on-overarching council or upper house.

Each of the layers has defined spheres of responsibility, with interlocking safety valves to balance the requirements.

In the Star Empire of Manticore you have:
Local government areas e.g., Harringtons one on Gryphon
System Governments i.e., The Manticore House of Commons/Lords
Quadrant Governments i.e., Talbott Quadrant
Imperial Government i.e., Imperial Parliament
Imperial Council - Head by the Empress

Though Manticore seems to be, de facto, treating places within roughly a day's travel of Manticore as being in its system.

Note how both Lynx (4 LY for its terminus) and San Martin (less than a light-day from its terminus) are seated with Manticore, Sphynx, and Gryphon in the 'system level' SKM parliament -- rather than just in the 'imperial level' SEM parliament.

Louis R wrote:Historically, every great empire operated as you describe, with one exception - and Alexander's empire blew apart within ~30 minutes of his demise. To be fair, he didn't live long enough to get more than barely started on actually organising that mess he slapped together. Even another 10 years and all our long words might well be Greek rather than Latin.

As opposed to only half?

There was a short story on Analog a few years ago (I'm going to say 2016 or 2017) about an alternate history some 300 years after Alexander had built and stabilised his empire. The story was about a female engineer fighting the prejudices of her time and helping the empire build locomotives (I think they had a Greek word for it) built with khroma and another metal that the author also used a Greek word for.

Turns out she was also in Judea and there was this local preacher attracting a lot of attention.

Unfortunately, Analog indexing is horrible and I can't find the edition, much less the story itself.

tlb wrote:I can accept that the monarch in Manticore may have more power than the current British monarch; but Manticore is STILL a constitutional monarchy, not an autocracy in an Imperial mode. Queen, and then Empress, Victoria might have had as much power as the current Manticoran monarch.

One way this can be seen is that the budget is created and approved by the legislature. Even when the House of Lords was in control, that did not give additional power to the monarch.

No, the monarch has enormous power. It was designed that way, with the Nobility having the dominant power for legislative and money, the commons not having that much. This had been changed during the course of the books, with the common getting somewhat more power and the lords giving up some of theirs.

But the monarch still has enormous power. The monarch is the head of the military and executive branches, more like the US president than the British Queen. The new PM visiting the monarch isn't just a formality. She can tell the PM "I don't like you, and I refuse. Go away." And then they need to find a new PM candidate.