RHN hardware vs SLN

With Haven's weaker tech, how much better or worse is Havenite (2nd War) tech than Battle Fleet?

I also don't think they bought Battle Fleet tech from the SLN to upgrade things, because they'd have been as curb-stomped as Battle Fleet was.

Just wondering (I've seen so many SLN vs RMN tech threads, but couldn't easily find a RHN one).

Civilian Solly tech might be better then equivalent Haven tech but as the RHN CAN actually fight the RMN, then it is better then SLN tech.

SLN might have some things better but the leaky embargo did sell some fairly high level solly tech. maybe not top of the line but good enough when added to what they reverse engined of Mantie tech to make the RHN clearly superior to SLN

Early on in the war, Haven found that Manticore has some nasty surprises for it in tech and in tactics. Their solution was both to start working on what they thought they could identify of what Manticore had done and to buy more modern SLN tech from the League. Manticore effectively blocked legal transfer of tech to Haven -they were in a war and Haven had attacked them so the diplomatic approach worked- but Haven switched to back-door purchases both of equipment and the ability to manufacture more cutting edge Solly military tech though bribery and other means.

That helped them but not enough. Best I can remember, they kept buying what they could from various League sources (illegal and otherwise) to push forward R&D and upgrade by adapting Solly stuff to improve -however small the improvements at each start- the Haven equipment.

Ultimately the Solly stuff -civilian and illegal military- became less and less useful as both Manticore continued to make advances and Haven clawed it's way ahead on it's own stuff trying to keep up.
By the time you get to Manticore in the Tabott area, both Haven and Manticore were massively ahead of anything SLN was getting (other than being fed to it by the Alignment like Cataphracts) and Haven isn't portrayed as sourcing military equipment tech from SL/SLN suppliesrs.

Aside from missile-tech, compensators and FTL communication it's mentioned that there's not that a big difference in tech in the later books between the different powers. What is remarked on in regards to Solly tech is that it is poorly utilized due to bad software plus they have been training and setting up doctrines that have been steadily diverging from dealing with real world scenarios.

Of course, they had a lot of outdated ships that had no real business being in a battle against a modern navy (ie Manty, RHN).

Brigade XO wrote:Early on in the war, Haven found that Manticore has some nasty surprises for it in tech and in tactics. Their solution was both to start working on what they thought they could identify of what Manticore had done and to buy more modern SLN tech from the League. Manticore effectively blocked legal transfer of tech to Haven -they were in a war and Haven had attacked them so the diplomatic approach worked- but Haven switched to back-door purchases both of equipment and the ability to manufacture more cutting edge Solly military tech though bribery and other means.

That helped them but not enough. Best I can remember, they kept buying what they could from various League sources (illegal and otherwise) to push forward R&D and upgrade by adapting Solly stuff to improve -however small the improvements at each start- the Haven equipment.

Ultimately the Solly stuff -civilian and illegal military- became less and less useful as both Manticore continued to make advances and Haven clawed it's way ahead on it's own stuff trying to keep up.
By the time you get to Manticore in the Tabott area, both Haven and Manticore were massively ahead of anything SLN was getting (other than being fed to it by the Alignment like Cataphracts) and Haven isn't portrayed as sourcing military equipment tech from SL/SLN suppliesrs.

And by the 2nd War, the RHN has its own LACs, MDMs, and podlayers.

I especially agree with you on those last two paragraphs.

Joat42 wrote:Aside from missile-tech, compensators and FTL communication it's mentioned that there's not that a big difference in tech in the later books between the different powers. What is remarked on in regards to Solly tech is that it is poorly utilized due to bad software plus they have been training and setting up doctrines that have been steadily diverging from dealing with real world scenarios.

Of course, they had a lot of outdated ships that had no real business being in a battle against a modern navy (ie Manty, RHN).

The current RHN would curb-stomp the Reserve, even if it was reactivated, assuming Shannon's podlayers stayed out of energy range, IMHO.

Brigade XO wrote:Early on in the war, Haven found that Manticore has some nasty surprises for it in tech and in tactics. Their solution was both to start working on what they thought they could identify of what Manticore had done and to buy more modern SLN tech from the League. Manticore effectively blocked legal transfer of tech to Haven -they were in a war and Haven had attacked them so the diplomatic approach worked- but Haven switched to back-door purchases both of equipment and the ability to manufacture more cutting edge Solly military tech though bribery and other means.

That helped them but not enough. Best I can remember, they kept buying what they could from various League sources (illegal and otherwise) to push forward R&D and upgrade by adapting Solly stuff to improve -however small the improvements at each start- the Haven equipment.

Ultimately the Solly stuff -civilian and illegal military- became less and less useful as both Manticore continued to make advances and Haven clawed it's way ahead on it's own stuff trying to keep up.
By the time you get to Manticore in the Tabott area, both Haven and Manticore were massively ahead of anything SLN was getting (other than being fed to it by the Alignment like Cataphracts) and Haven isn't portrayed as sourcing military equipment tech from SL/SLN suppliesrs.

Haven stopped buying from the League about the same time, to the second, that Theisman gave Oscar Saint-Just some pulser darts on the house for his retirement party.

Theisman was also part of the clandestine purchases from the League, he even tells Filareta that. And after he became Minister for War, Haven R&D not only stopped buying Solarian tech, it started laughing at them for how behind the Manticoran Buttercup technology they were.

So the League might be able to determine a decent starting point for internal R&D, based on what they saw demonstrated by the GA and what technologies the People's Republic were desperate for. But State Security also secretly bought a lot of crap like the homing beacon + homing missiles that ultimately led to the Cromarty assassination, which the People's Navy had no idea was getting purchased, so the SLN has to sort out what was purchased because it was bug-house crazy StateSec garbage, and what was purchased which could lead to minor advancemnts.

I'd say its a bit of a mismash.

Havens wall of battle, in the 2nd war, would crush any SLN fleet that existed in that timeperiod. They'd got SD(P)s with true MDMs, Shannon's improved missile defenses, and screened by vast numbers of LACs. Those LACs are as capable, individually, as anti-missile platforms as a Katana, or probably even a Shrike or Ferret -- but they still help seriously blunt missile swarms.

Also, Haven by that point had cracked improved compensators. They weren't a good as Manticore's latest; but they'd have been more than enough to let them hold their own.

OTOH below the wall they wouldn't have had that same kind of edge. We never saw new designs of smaller ships, they appear to have no counterpart to the RMN's Mk16 DDM; and possibly not even to their older extended range missiles. And given that at least SLN CAs and BCs can fit some flavor of Cataphract into their magazines a BC or below engagement should involve Haven's ships with a serious missile range disadvantage. And if they don't have new designs then they may not have the kind of improved anti-missile suites that RMN ships do.

That said, even in the 1st war Haven seems to have fit heavier anti-missile defenses to their ships than SLN counterparts -- the pre-war Sultan-class BC carrying 14 CMs & 12 PDLCs on each broadside, to the Indefatigable's 8 & 16, or the larger Nevada's
12 & 16. (The greater emphasis on PDLCs instead of CMs shows the SLN's pre-laser-head design bias). Also it's specifically mentioned that the RMN's missile tube cycle time is significantly faster than the SLN's; but I don't recall ever hearing that there was any significant different there between RMN and RHN -- so once they get into missile range Haven's cruisers and destroyers should be able to fire salvos at significantly tighter intervals.

Still, if the MAlign has already slipped the SLN Cataphracts then any BC or CA fights are going to let the SLN get in some significant lumps before Haven's ships can beat their way close enough to return fire. (But once you get down to the destroyers and light cruisers there's no Cataphract small enough for them to carry; so the missile ranges are far closer to equal)

And then there's the soft combat side of things -- Haven likely has more effective decoys, jammers, ecm, and missile defense software than the League does. They've have more combat, including the whole first war, to force the real world evolution of that -- and all that make their missiles more effective and the League's less effective.

Still, despite those advantages Haven's smaller ships just don't have the utter dominance that their SD(P)s do over the League's wallers.

The League many actually have better sensors, and better stealth tech. (But if the software that interprets the take from those sensors isn't as good a lot of their raw capabilities might well be wasted)

But the ironic thing is, despite how purely they've applied their technology to their warships and missiles, the League still has a generally higher tech base. They should have access to more powerful computers (even if they've never bothered to install them in their current warships) and many other things where the tech is just better than Havens. But they've been let down by no need to develop software that fully exploits than, and no need to focus their general tech into deployed military systems. (And in fact, in some ways, the SLN wanted to avoid major tech disruptions -- they didn't want to risk introducing a new tech or design that rendered their vast reserves worthless)

Jonathan_S wrote:I'd say its a bit of a mismash.

Havens wall of battle, in the 2nd war, would crush any SLN fleet that existed in that timeperiod. They'd got SD(P)s with true MDMs, Shannon's improved missile defenses, and screened by vast numbers of LACs. Those LACs are as capable, individually, as anti-missile platforms as a Katana, or probably even a Shrike or Ferret -- but they still help seriously blunt missile swarms.

Also, Haven by that point had cracked improved compensators. They weren't a good as Manticore's latest; but they'd have been more than enough to let them hold their own.

OTOH below the wall they wouldn't have had that same kind of edge. We never saw new designs of smaller ships, they appear to have no counterpart to the RMN's Mk16 DDM; and possibly not even to their older extended range missiles. And given that at least SLN CAs and BCs can fit some flavor of Cataphract into their magazines a BC or below engagement should involve Haven's ships with a serious missile range disadvantage. And if they don't have new designs then they may not have the kind of improved anti-missile suites that RMN ships do.

That said, even in the 1st war Haven seems to have fit heavier anti-missile defenses to their ships than SLN counterparts -- the pre-war Sultan-class BC carrying 14 CMs & 12 PDLCs on each broadside, to the Indefatigable's 8 & 16, or the larger Nevada's
12 & 16. (The greater emphasis on PDLCs instead of CMs shows the SLN's pre-laser-head design bias). Also it's specifically mentioned that the RMN's missile tube cycle time is significantly faster than the SLN's; but I don't recall ever hearing that there was any significant different there between RMN and RHN -- so once they get into missile range Haven's cruisers and destroyers should be able to fire salvos at significantly tighter intervals.

Still, if the MAlign has already slipped the SLN Cataphracts then any BC or CA fights are going to let the SLN get in some significant lumps before Haven's ships can beat their way close enough to return fire. (But once you get down to the destroyers and light cruisers there's no Cataphract small enough for them to carry; so the missile ranges are far closer to equal)

And then there's the soft combat side of things -- Haven likely has more effective decoys, jammers, ecm, and missile defense software than the League does. They've have more combat, including the whole first war, to force the real world evolution of that -- and all that make their missiles more effective and the League's less effective.

Still, despite those advantages Haven's smaller ships just don't have the utter dominance that their SD(P)s do over the League's wallers.

The League many actually have better sensors, and better stealth tech. (But if the software that interprets the take from those sensors isn't as good a lot of their raw capabilities might well be wasted)

But the ironic thing is, despite how purely they've applied their technology to their warships and missiles, the League still has a generally higher tech base. They should have access to more powerful computers (even if they've never bothered to install them in their current warships) and many other things where the tech is just better than Havens. But they've been let down by no need to develop software that fully exploits than, and no need to focus their general tech into deployed military systems. (And in fact, in some ways, the SLN wanted to avoid major tech disruptions -- they didn't want to risk introducing a new tech or design that rendered their vast reserves worthless)

Does anyone think RHN tactics vs SLN Battle Fleet tactics would make a difference, because Battle Fleet sims are made to make BF COs look good?

I suspect that much of the military tech that Haven purchased surreptitiously wasn't being used by the Solarian fleets.
Several reasons, inertia, wrong connections or bribes in BF, not seen as needed by the biggest gorilla.
However the Sollies may have been trying to avoid the trap which the British fleet fell into twice in OTL. Decades apart, but each time the British came up with a game changing ship, HMS Warrior, then later HMS Dreadnought, they effectively went from having the most effective number of ships of the line by far, to only having one ahead of the other powers.