Anton and Boris

Paul Green wrote:Contrary to Cathy Montaigne's suggestion, the role of Boris Gudenov calls for a bass-baritone, rather than a deep bass such as Anton Zelinsky is described as. Is this Cathy's error or David Weber's?

Paul Green wrote:Contrary to Cathy Montaigne's suggestion, the role of Boris Gudenov calls for a bass-baritone, rather than a deep bass such as Anton Zelinsky is described as. Is this Cathy's error or David Weber's?

cthia wrote:Welcome to the sandbox Paul Green!

I am drawing a blank. I assume these characters came into play when Cathy was on Sol?

Cathy was struck by the man's voice. His accent, partly—Zilwicki still bore the imprint of his obvious Gryphon highlander upbringing. But, mostly, it was that Zilwicki's voice was so deep it was almost a rumble.
Her natural impulsiveness broke through the moment's tension.
"Have you ever considered a singing career, Captain? I'm sure you would make a marvelous Boris Gudonov."
Again, Zilwicki's mouth made that little twitch. But his eyes seemed to darken still further.
"My wife used to say that to me," he murmured. "But I think she was mostly just tired of coming to church choirs, dressed in suitably conservative clothing. She'd have rather swept into the opera house in one of the glamorous gowns I bought for her. Which, sad to say, almost never got worn."
For all the affectionate humor in the remark, Cathy did not miss the sorrow lurking behind it. That, and the name, finally registered.
"Helen Zilwicki?"
The captain nodded.
"My condolences, Captain."

Greeted as a novelty in the Met’s repertory, Boris Godunov had considerable success and was repeated every season through 1929. From 1921 to 1929, the most famous proponent of the title role in the opera’s history, Fyodor Chaliapin, sang Boris every season at the Met. “Chaliapin brings something to the opera that is greater than singing, greater than acting. He brings drama, that perfect realization and illusion of life for which singing and acting exist,” wrote the eminent critic of the New York World. The Russian bass’s interpretation of the tortured tsar became, in short, a legend in opera history. While Chaliapin sang Boris in Russian, all the other characters and the chorus kept to Italian.

-- snip --

In the final season of Chaliapin’s Boris performances, a young Italian bass, Ezio Pinza, sang the role of the monk Pimen. Ten years later, Pinza would take the title role when Boris Godunov was revived for the first time since the Chaliapin years. Pinza, who naturally sang in Italian along with the rest of the cast, would remain the Met’s chief interpreter of the title role for the next decade, though he was briefly spelled by Ukrainian bass Alexander Kipnis in 1943.

-- snip --

While the sets and costumes from 1913 had been refreshed in 1938, they were not replaced until 1953 when the opera was given in English with the American bass-baritone George London in the title role.

Paul Green wrote:It is true that Chaliapin, Kipnis and Pinza, not to mention Samuel Ramey and Rene' Pape, were/are all basses, but none of them was a Basso profundo such as Josef Greindl, Gotlob Frick or Kurt Moll, whose natural roles include Osmin in the Abduction from the Seraglio and Baron Ochs von Lerchenau in Der Rosenkavalier, but not Boris.. This is the group to which Anton's voice belongs, and none of them ever sang Boris.

tlb wrote:

Paul Green wrote:It is true that Chaliapin, Kipnis and Pinza, not to mention Samuel Ramey and Rene' Pape, were/are all basses, but none of them was a Basso profundo such as Josef Greindl, Gotlob Frick or Kurt Moll, whose natural roles include Osmin in the Abduction from the Seraglio and Baron Ochs von Lerchenau in Der Rosenkavalier, but not Boris.. This is the group to which Anton's voice belongs, and none of them ever sang Boris.

I bow to your specialized knowledge, of which I have none. The original question was between Bass and Bass-baritone and I thought I had an answer. So I will reply with a question: if it is possible to shift the register between Bass and Bass-baritone; then would it be possible to shift it to basso-profundo? I apologize if "shift" and "register" are not the correct words. So the question is not has it ever been done, but instead would it be possible to do so?

Maybe Cathy (and the first Helen Zilwicki) were merely saying that they would like to hear him try; rather than implying any error by Eric Flint.

tlb wrote:

Paul Green wrote:It is true that Chaliapin, Kipnis and Pinza, not to mention Samuel Ramey and Rene' Pape, were/are all basses, but none of them was a Basso profundo such as Josef Greindl, Gotlob Frick or Kurt Moll, whose natural roles include Osmin in the Abduction from the Seraglio and Baron Ochs von Lerchenau in Der Rosenkavalier, but not Boris.. This is the group to which Anton's voice belongs, and none of them ever sang Boris.

I bow to your specialized knowledge, of which I have none. The original question was between Bass and Bass-baritone and I thought I had an answer. So I will reply with a question: if it is possible to shift the register between Bass and Bass-baritone; then would it be possible to shift it to basso-profundo? I apologize if "shift" and "register" are not the correct words. So the question is not has it ever been done, but instead would it be possible to do so?

Maybe Cathy (and the first Helen Zilwicki) were merely saying that they would like to hear him try; rather than implying any error by Eric Flint.

tlb wrote:Maybe Cathy (and the first Helen Zilwicki) were merely saying that they would like to hear him try; rather than implying any error by Eric Flint.

Paul Green wrote:This is a good point. Certainly there are bass roles, e.g. Sarastro in The Magic Flute. the Commendatore in Don Giovanni, and King Marke in Tristan, which can be sung by bassi profundi. Boris would be a bit of a stretch, but there is another consideration on your side of the argument: some basses, and even bass baritones, have strikingly deep speaking voices and Helen and Cathy could have conjectured that Anton's voice was one of these.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Maybe Cathy (and the first Helen Zilwicki) were merely saying that they would like to hear him try; rather than implying any error by Eric Flint.

Paul Green wrote:This is a good point. Certainly there are bass roles, e.g. Sarastro in The Magic Flute. the Commendatore in Don Giovanni, and King Marke in Tristan, which can be sung by bassi profundi. Boris would be a bit of a stretch, but there is another consideration on your side of the argument: some basses, and even bass baritones, have strikingly deep speaking voices and Helen and Cathy could have conjectured that Anton's voice was one of these.

Thank you for the kind words. Note that the text implies that the original Helen (but certainly not Cathy) had heard him sing in a church choir, with no hint of the result (except for the desire to hear him in a secular role).

tlb wrote:Note that the text implies that the original Helen (but certainly not Cathy) had heard him sing in a church choir, with no hint of the result (except for the desire to hear him in a secular role).

cthia wrote:Could it be that he had an extraordinary vocal range and Cathy was aware of it? Tim Robbins has a 10 octave vocal range with notes so low only elephants can hear it. And who knows what "technology" - or results from genetic tampering - can do to assist that range in the Honorverse.