A comment on the German in ACTI (and other Honorverse books)

Hello all,

I'm very sorry that my first post in this forum (of which I have been a silent reader for 10 years) will be a negative one, but when reading ACTI recently (the final release, not the eARC), I noticed that either David or the Lector really struggled with the German in this one. There's been typos in people's Names, (consistent throughout the book) typos in ranks, and some names that would never be used in actual German and/or sound very cringy (like the Destroyer "Gewalthaufen", literally "violence pile").

I'm not sure it only started to annoy me this time around because the Andermani featured so prominently in the book, or if I just ignored it better in the past, but I'd wish that for some of those, a native speaker would have been consulted..

David has a native German speaker that he talks to about this stuff. So he tries, but it's hard.

kuldan5853 wrote:Hello all,

I'm very sorry that my first post in this forum (of which I have been a silent reader for 10 years) will be a negative one, but when reading ACTI recently (the final release, not the eARC), I noticed that either David or the Lector really struggled with the German in this one. There's been typos in people's Names, (consistent throughout the book) typos in ranks, and some names that would never be used in actual German and/or sound very cringy (like the Destroyer "Gewalthaufen", literally "violence pile").

I'm not sure it only started to annoy me this time around because the Andermani featured so prominently in the book, or if I just ignored it better in the past, but I'd wish that for some of those, a native speaker would have been consulted..

Welcome into the warmth!

I can see why misspellings can grind ones gears, especially when it comes to intentional foreign names that a native speaker will find strange or misspelled. When it comes to the Andermani you have to consider that the whole reason they use German is because after Gustav Anderman saved the colony Kuan Yin the colonists adopted a romanticized version of German and renamed their colony to Potsdam to honor Gustav. Taken into account language drift occurring over a period of 1700 years and that the colonists original language was Chinese it's entirely possible that "Gewalthaufen" makes perfect sense in that context.

TL;DR: The spellings that you find to be "wrong" may actually be what rfc actually intended them to be because of the backstory of the Andermani.

Joat42 wrote:

kuldan5853 wrote:Hello all,

I'm very sorry that my first post in this forum (of which I have been a silent reader for 10 years) will be a negative one, but when reading ACTI recently (the final release, not the eARC), I noticed that either David or the Lector really struggled with the German in this one. There's been typos in people's Names, (consistent throughout the book) typos in ranks, and some names that would never be used in actual German and/or sound very cringy (like the Destroyer "Gewalthaufen", literally "violence pile").

I'm not sure it only started to annoy me this time around because the Andermani featured so prominently in the book, or if I just ignored it better in the past, but I'd wish that for some of those, a native speaker would have been consulted..

Welcome into the warmth!

I can see why misspellings can grind ones gears, especially when it comes to intentional foreign names that a native speaker will find strange or misspelled. When it comes to the Andermani you have to consider that the whole reason they use German is because after Gustav Anderman saved the colony Kuan Yin the colonists adopted a romanticized version of German and renamed their colony to Potsdam to honor Gustav. Taken into account language drift occurring over a period of 1700 years and that the colonists original language was Chinese it's entirely possible that "Gewalthaufen" makes perfect sense in that context.

TL;DR: The spellings that you find to be "wrong" may actually be what rfc actually intended them to be because of the backstory of the Andermani.

This makes good sense. Language drift is inevitable. The difference between American English and English English is due to geographic separation as well as time of separation. We get accused by the English of using a bastardized form of the language when really we have just drifted apart. Then compare modern English on both sides of the pond with Shakespeare. From his point of view, we would all speaking "bastardized" English. Go back as far as Chaucer and you almost need a translator .

German is the same way. Modern day German has drifted from the time of Luther. The same is true of all languages. Language drift slowed somewhat due to widespread literacy. And radio and tv have slowed it even more. But the process of language drift goes on...

Don

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Joat42 wrote:

kuldan5853 wrote:Hello all,

I'm very sorry that my first post in this forum (of which I have been a silent reader for 10 years) will be a negative one, but when reading ACTI recently (the final release, not the eARC), I noticed that either David or the Lector really struggled with the German in this one. There's been typos in people's Names, (consistent throughout the book) typos in ranks, and some names that would never be used in actual German and/or sound very cringy (like the Destroyer "Gewalthaufen", literally "violence pile").

I'm not sure it only started to annoy me this time around because the Andermani featured so prominently in the book, or if I just ignored it better in the past, but I'd wish that for some of those, a native speaker would have been consulted..

Welcome into the warmth!

I can see why misspellings can grind ones gears, especially when it comes to intentional foreign names that a native speaker will find strange or misspelled. When it comes to the Andermani you have to consider that the whole reason they use German is because after Gustav Anderman saved the colony Kuan Yin the colonists adopted a romanticized version of German and renamed their colony to Potsdam to honor Gustav. Taken into account language drift occurring over a period of 1700 years and that the colonists original language was Chinese it's entirely possible that "Gewalthaufen" makes perfect sense in that context.

TL;DR: The spellings that you find to be "wrong" may actually be what rfc actually intended them to be because of the backstory of the Andermani.

This makes good sense. Language drift is inevitable. The difference between American English and English English is due to geographic separation as well as time of separation. We get accused by the English of using a bastardized form of the language when really we have just drifted apart. Then compare modern English on both sides of the pond with Shakespeare. From his point of view, we would all speaking "bastardized" English. Go back as far as Chaucer and you almost need a translator .

German is the same way. Modern day German has drifted from the time of Luther. The same is true of all languages. Language drift slowed somewhat due to widespread literacy. And radio and tv have slowed it even more. But the process of language drift goes on...

Don

-

n7axw wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Welcome into the warmth!

I can see why misspellings can grind ones gears, especially when it comes to intentional foreign names that a native speaker will find strange or misspelled. When it comes to the Andermani you have to consider that the whole reason they use German is because after Gustav Anderman saved the colony Kuan Yin the colonists adopted a romanticized version of German and renamed their colony to Potsdam to honor Gustav. Taken into account language drift occurring over a period of 1700 years and that the colonists original language was Chinese it's entirely possible that "Gewalthaufen" makes perfect sense in that context.

TL;DR: The spellings that you find to be "wrong" may actually be what rfc actually intended them to be because of the backstory of the Andermani.

This makes good sense. Language drift is inevitable. The difference between American English and English English is due to geographic separation as well as time of separation. We get accused by the English of using a bastardized form of the language when really we have just drifted apart. Then compare modern English on both sides of the pond with Shakespeare. From his point of view, we would all speaking "bastardized" English. Go back as far as Chaucer and you almost need a translator .

German is the same way. Modern day German has drifted from the time of Luther. The same is true of all languages. Language drift slowed somewhat due to widespread literacy. And radio and tv have slowed it even more. But the process of language drift goes on...

Don

-

I only speak "School Boy German" (College level, but no one is going to confuse me with a native) But if I remember correctly, The current "Hoch Deutsch" (High German) was only Invented in the late 1800s as part of the solidification of the German nation. The actual German spoken in many of the smaller towns in Germany vary considerably from Hoch Deutsch, as does that in Switzerland and Austria (and even large cities like Vienna push the bounds of being a local dialect at times.

And don't feel I'm trying to insult anybody - even in the same country (or Town), English is bastardized from "Webster's English" in multiple different directions.

My actually point leans towards the Romanized German argument - Gustaf saw himself as a modern day Fredrich the Great - who spoke a Prussian version of early 1800s German. It could be that an earlier dialect of German is not the basis of what the Andermani created. When your making your own rules - well, you can make the rules anything you like.

However, I still feel your pain - a part of me dies inside every time I hear someone say "Let me axe you a question..."

n7axw wrote:This makes good sense. Language drift is inevitable. The difference between American English and English English is due to geographic separation as well as time of separation. We get accused by the English of using a bastardized form of the language when really we have just drifted apart. Then compare modern English on both sides of the pond with Shakespeare. From his point of view, we would all speaking "bastardized" English. Go back as far as Chaucer and you almost need a translator .

German is the same way. Modern day German has drifted from the time of Luther. The same is true of all languages. Language drift slowed somewhat due to widespread literacy. And radio and tv have slowed it even more. But the process of language drift goes on...

Unlike English, but like Norwegian or Portuguese, German has an academy that updates the rules of the language even without major language drift (French has L'Académie, but they don't update the language). Take, for instance "schiffart" vs "schifffart," changed by the German spelling reform of 1996.

Of course, I only know this because of the Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft. I wonder if they would reconsider moving their fictitious HQ to Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.

Theemile wrote:My actually point leans towards the Romanized German argument - Gustaf saw himself as a modern day Fredrich the Great - who spoke a Prussian version of early 1800s German. It could be that an earlier dialect of German is not the basis of what the Andermani created. When your making your own rules - well, you can make the rules anything you like.

Now consider that those who started talking German spoke Chinese first which would lead to something akin to "Germish" (see Engrish), ie German spoken/written with a Chinese twist in syntax and usage.

Theemile wrote:However, I still feel your pain - a part of me dies inside every time I hear someone say "Let me axe you a question..."

And I have problems with "were/where", "to/too" "lose/loose" and some other words that have slight variations in spelling but sound alike due to my slight dyslexia which tend to rile some people up.

Joat42 wrote:And I have problems with "were/where", "to/too" "lose/loose" and some other words that have slight variations in spelling but sound alike due to my slight dyslexia which tend to rile some people up.

"Lose" and "loose" is galling, but it's something that editors do look for, so while some might be missed, the majority will be gone before we see the final version. One that doesn't and that gets me most worked up is confusing "compliment" with "complement."

Here's how to remember it: the crew's complement is complete.

I cringe at the possibilities of many variations of a creole or Cajun variation of German-Mandarin (or whatever dialect of Chinese the people of Potsdam, and the German& whatever of the other systems were taken over by the Anderman Empire over end up sounding like.
Ah well.......