Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

munroburton wrote:"Bill Woods"]"munroburton"] I wouldn't call Harrington in Honor of the Queen super-brilliant. She screwed up at least twice tactically - the first time against that LAC which got an attack run in and the second, when she broke off the engagement with Saladin.

It wasn't just Sword Simonds' panic that let the Masadans down either - their tac department was running canned EW programs, which let Cardones land a few contact nukes.

Similarly in the Battle of Monica, after another bunch of neobarbs(significantly less technophobic than the Masadans too) were given ex-SLN battlecruisers. One of their engineers screwed up and let a fusion reactor blow up because of patronage/inexperience/insufficient training/being thrown into action earlier than expected.

I think that's kind of unfair. I mean, he did lack experience and training, but I don't see a clear screw up.

Yet this time, he was painfully aware of his shortcomings. In the last two weeks he'd begun finding his way around, well enough, at least, that he was pretty sure his ratings and petty officers were no longer laughing behind his back. And he had to admit the Technodyne technicians were right; Typhoon's power rooms really were laid out better, with controls that were easier to use. They just weren't the controls Tyler had spent three and a half T-years learning like the back of his own hand aboard the cruiser Star Fury.
As he listened to the alarms howl, he hoped the damage control parties had learned their equipment better than he'd learned his.
...
Power surges cascaded through her systems, starting in Impeller One and Laser Three. Automatic circuit breakers stopped most of them, but three of the breakers themselves had been knocked out. Rampant energy surged past them, and a broadside graser's superconductor ring blew, shattering internal bulkheads and adding its own massive power to the surge.
The surge that came roaring down the graser's main feed trunk and straight into Power One.
The untamed torrent of energy thundered into the compartment, and an already nervous petty officer leapt back as his control panel blew up. He fell to the decksole on the seat of his pants as electrical fires danced through the control runs, and an alarm began to scream.
...
"Captain, this is Tyler, in Power One!" the young voice in Captain Schroeder's earbug was raw with terror. "We're losing containment on Fusion One!"
"Shut it down!"
"Sir, I'm trying, but—"

In hindsight, calling the captain was a waste of time, but unless there's a Big Red Button he should have pushed, I don't think you can say he wasn't just overwhelmed by the circumstances. 'Golden BBs' do happen.[/quote]

Fair enough - perhaps overly harsh on the guy and battlecruisers don't put their fusion rooms near enough to the hull for an ejection - no big red buttons, then.

But there's nothing to say that an experienced, fully trained and drilled engineer couldn't have done something about it either.

And that's part of the whole problem. Those ships have none of the improved armour(internal and external), sidewall generators(for the front and rear), enhanced PDLCs/CMs, not were they designed with the benefit of 10 years of picking through battle damage.

Just because human wave attacks are possible, doesn't mean they should be made.[/quote]


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Just a comment --

The "OpForce" examples given in this recent discussion, (1) Masadans operating a Havenite Sultan Class that was clearly beyond their "then current" abilities
(2) Silecian Pirates operating Solaran Gladiator Class CA's
(3) Monican and Solaran contractors operating Solaran BC's

All are examples of being able to "operate" the ship -- essentially, having read the manuals and knowing which button to push or which valve to open.
That is a LONG way from a trained, experienced crew operating their ship.
Once upon a time (Sea Story -- this is no $*it) there was an anonymous 8-reactor aircraft carrier that, during the VietNam conflict was regularly able to launch 4 aircraft every minute (45 second cycle time on the catapults) and the engineering watchstanding crews would try (and frequently succeed) in beating the equipment casualty drill. (anyone wish to discuss a Loss of Feed off-line ?)

RFC does not get into engineering details (not his displayed forte), but he DOES understand the British training adage "Train like its bloodless battle, and Battle will be like bloody training"

We've seen throughout the series that the better trained crew usually survives. Despite mass and numerical advantages, the Tiberian, Monican and Masadan crews ended up at a disadvantage.

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:
The "OpForce" examples given in this recent discussion, (1) Masadans operating a Havenite Sultan Class that was clearly beyond their "then current" abilities
(2) Silecian Pirates operating Solaran Gladiator Class CA's
(3) Monican and Solaran contractors operating Solaran BC's

All are examples of being able to "operate" the ship -- essentially, having read the manuals and knowing which button to push or which valve to open.
That is a LONG way from a trained, experienced crew operating their ship.

Yes. However, is this likely to be adequate for the task set upon them? Second, if not what better alternative did they have?

Consider also if Masada had been given an SD. Fearless would have been unable to stop it, and wouldn't have survived the first encounter inflicting at most minor damage if the foolish decision had been made to engage it.

kzt wrote:

stewart wrote:
The "OpForce" examples given in this recent discussion, (1) Masadans operating a Havenite Sultan Class that was clearly beyond their "then current" abilities
(2) Silecian Pirates operating Solaran Gladiator Class CA's
(3) Monican and Solaran contractors operating Solaran BC's

All are examples of being able to "operate" the ship -- essentially, having read the manuals and knowing which button to push or which valve to open.
That is a LONG way from a trained, experienced crew operating their ship.

Yes. However, is this likely to be adequate for the task set upon them? Second, if not what better alternative did they have?

Consider also if Masada had been given an SD. Fearless would have been unable to stop it, and wouldn't have survived the first encounter inflicting at most minor damage if the foolish decision had been made to engage it.

If that was the case, then we had better hope our heroine was sent to Grayson in a repaired CL-56 Fearless, TWTMNBM refit retained instead of a brand new Star Knight.

The Governor of Maya could have been setting up the logistics and training for several years before we were informed of his plans.

Even assuming that it was all a spontaneous plan there would still be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 4 years between the negotiations for the purchase of the ships from Erewhon and Battle of Manticore until which point the SL had not taken any action against him and after which point they may be too busy to notice, or too off balance to effectively reply especially if they think he has only 1 CL and 18 DDs.That is 4 years to build the infrastructure and train a solid pool of personnel for their needs.

Based on the scraps of information I could find I estimate that the SLN both Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet combined number somewhere between 40,000,000 people and 70,000,000 people. Now, knowing that the numbers are this large it would not be too hard to get some regular transfers and keep the people they are replacing thereby increasing their numbers. Retired BF or FF officers and NCMs going back to Maya sector and maybe even the adjacent sectors. A portion of the most promising new recruits from Maya are also siphoned off and the numbers add up. Now set up the training base where they were planning on setting up their ships after purchase and you have the manpower sorted out. Using salami slicing they can gather a insignificant number of personnel through any number of methods but which would eventually add up to be able to man their new fleet. More than that though, they have to also set up a training system BEFORE they declare independence from the SL so that they can guarantee the expansion of their fleet and continued security of their manpower.


Edit:
As an afterthought, there are also somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,800,000 SLN servicemen and women in Manticorean custody, I'm sure if approached appropriately they can be helpful in reliving the manpower shortages for the Mayan fleet.

munroburton wrote:"kzt"]"stewart"]

The "OpForce" examples given in this recent discussion, (1) Masadans operating a Havenite Sultan Class that was clearly beyond their "then current" abilities
(2) Silecian Pirates operating Solaran Gladiator Class CA's
(3) Monican and Solaran contractors operating Solaran BC's

All are examples of being able to "operate" the ship -- essentially, having read the manuals and knowing which button to push or which valve to open.
That is a LONG way from a trained, experienced crew operating their ship.

Yes. However, is this likely to be adequate for the task set upon them? Second, if not what better alternative did they have?

Consider also if Masada had been given an SD. Fearless would have been unable to stop it, and wouldn't have survived the first encounter inflicting at most minor damage if the foolish decision had been made to engage it.[/quote]

If that was the case, then we had better hope our heroine was sent to Grayson in a repaired CL-56 Fearless, TWTMNBM refit retained instead of a brand new Star Knight. [/quote]


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The Legislatorist Havenites were acting much as the USA and USSR were during the Cold War -- offering a Sultan BC and older / serviceable DD's was much like the USA supplying F-5's and A-37's to 3rd World quasi-allies while the USSR supplied Mig-15's / -17's /-19's; serviceable and potent in the right arena, but no match for the USA / USSR front-line craft.

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:-------------

The Legislatorist Havenites were acting much as the USA and USSR were during the Cold War -- offering a Sultan BC and older / serviceable DD's was much like the USA supplying F-5's and A-37's to 3rd World quasi-allies while the USSR supplied Mig-15's / -17's /-19's; serviceable and potent in the right arena, but no match for the USA / USSR front-line craft.

-- Stewart

In 1902 the Sultan and City (a very missile heavy design) classes were the latest and greatest.

So selling Japan a Aegis destroyer instead. Still a fairly valid analogy.

For a text quote.

SVW Naval Weaponry wrote:The disparity in average hull sizes is evident, but what it actually meant in fighting power can be best illustrated by comparing two ships of nominally equivalent classes: HMS Nike and PNS Sultan. Both were battlecruisers of the latest generation, but Nike massed 879,000 tons with a crew of 2,105 (including Marines) as opposed to Sultan’s 858,000 tons and crew of 1,695. Although she was less than three percent more massive overall, Nike’s side-walls were ten percent tougher than Sultan’s, and her energy weapons were fifteen percent more massive (and much more powerful) on a mount-for-mount basis.

Have fun,
T2M

I regards to the discussion of the Masadans manning the PN BC Saladin/Thunder of God, I would note that there were hundreds of Havenite crew members left behind when Yu made his escape and I presume that the Masadans 'persuaded' them to cooperate, especially since they were going into battle.

Textev:

“How many?” Yu asked.

“I make it a hundred sixty, Sir,” Bryan said heavily. Yu’s face was stone, but his eyes showed his pain. That was less than twenty-seven percent of his Havenite crew, but there’d been no new arrivals in almost fifteen minutes, and the Masadans were bringing up flamethrowers as well as grenades and rifles. He raised his wrist com to his mouth.

“Sam?”

“Yes, Sir?”

“Get your ass in here. It’s time to go.”

Sigs wrote:..snip..
As an afterthought, there are also somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,800,000 SLN servicemen and women in Manticorean custody, I'm sure if approached appropriately they can be helpful in reliving the manpower shortages for the Mayan fleet.

And how do you suppose that would work out? There are numerous problems with that suggestion.

1. What official incentives does Manticore have for releasing the POWs to Maya?
2. What stops BF from just picking up the POWs at Maya after their release?
3. Why would the released POWs stay in Maya?
4. From Mayas perspective this will be VERY bad since the system will then be crawling with reporters and investigators from BF that need to debrief the POWs.

Then there is the minor problem of transporting the POWs, but I guess that can be accomplished by gutting the weaponry on a bunch of the captured SD's and send them on their merry way.

Joat42 wrote:

Sigs wrote:..snip..
As an afterthought, there are also somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,800,000 SLN servicemen and women in Manticorean custody, I'm sure if approached appropriately they can be helpful in reliving the manpower shortages for the Mayan fleet.

And how do you suppose that would work out? There are numerous problems with that suggestion.

1. What official incentives does Manticore have for releasing the POWs to Maya?
2. What stops BF from just picking up the POWs at Maya after their release?
3. Why would the released POWs stay in Maya?
4. From Mayas perspective this will be VERY bad since the system will then be crawling with reporters and investigators from BF that need to debrief the POWs.

Then there is the minor problem of transporting the POWs, but I guess that can be accomplished by gutting the weaponry on a bunch of the captured SD's and send them on their merry way.

Yeah, and since a major part of the Barregos/Roczak stragety is to play "Good little Satraps" for FF/OFS until they are fully ready to execute the Sepoy Option, any attention from the SL/BF regarding prisoners would be...unwelcome.

Still, out of those 1.8M SLN personnel, there may be a few from the Maya Sector who might be supportive of the Sepoy Option--the problem is, deciding if they really are.

Maybe if there are only a few hundred, the treecats can help out (they can't process all 1.8M, of course, but 1,000-1,200 may be doable.

Joat42 wrote:

Sigs wrote:..snip..
As an afterthought, there are also somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,800,000 SLN servicemen and women in Manticorean custody, I'm sure if approached appropriately they can be helpful in reliving the manpower shortages for the Mayan fleet.

And how do you suppose that would work out? There are numerous problems with that suggestion.

1. What official incentives does Manticore have for releasing the POWs to Maya?
2. What stops BF from just picking up the POWs at Maya after their release?
3. Why would the released POWs stay in Maya?
4. From Mayas perspective this will be VERY bad since the system will then be crawling with reporters and investigators from BF that need to debrief the POWs.

Then there is the minor problem of transporting the POWs, but I guess that can be accomplished by gutting the weaponry on a bunch of the captured SD's and send them on their merry way.

1) The incentive is that they can help out one of the SL sector governments gain independence by letting them select people for their fleet and marines. So instead of the RMN invading and conquering the sector it would already have a government in place sort of like the Kingdom of Meyers only larger. This benefits the GA by denying the resources and economy of the sector to the enemy.
2) I am not taking about releasing 1.8 million SLN personnel to man the fleet, I am talking about Maya getting to pick and choose to offer a chance to those who meet certain criteria.
3) They would stay in Maya because the people Maya would select would be those who have an axe to grind with the SLN or the SL in General, people from the Verge who may very well have little to no loyalty overall to the SLN. I suspect that from a pool of 1.8 million candidates they can safely convince a quarter of a percent to half a percent to join them, it wont be a huge increase but it would essentially double to Maya sector manpower.
4) Once again I am NOT talking about hundreds of thousands of POWs released, nor am I talking about advertising the release of the handful who accept that offer. For say 10,000 POW to disappear when there are roughly 1.8 million It is less than one percent of the total, even if the SLN cared by the time the discrepancy is noticed Maya would have a another year or two to deal with their manpower shortage.

As for transport, again I am NOT talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of POWs being released, I am talking about maybe no more than 15,000 POWs being released to the care of Maya at least initially. Both Manticore and Haven have plenty of assault transports and one or two of the Atlas class ships can suffice to get any of the volunteers to the Maya Sector.