Attacking Darius:

kzt wrote:No, there is a lot 'this does not follow' in some of the deeper issues of the honorverse.

I do not disagree with your reasoning or figures; but I would like to know to what point you are specifically saying "NO".

I assume that it is the suggestion that the plasma can be low temperature, based on how hot you say it actually needs to be.

PS: It occurs to me that another problem with the low temperature plasma (that is heated up for use) is that the plasma is the only major source of power on the ship. So what drives the machine that heats up the plasma for use, is it electricity? There does need to be electricity generated at some point, to power all the electronics (you cannot feed plasma into molecular circuitry). That would seem reasonable, but it has two problems. I have already stated the first, it eliminates the need for plasma pipes; since plasma can be generated at the site on demand. The second is that there are inefficiencies in every process that changes one form of energy into another; so it would be more efficient to use the electricity directly in the weapon (or whatever, because that eliminates one conversion process).

Theemile wrote:
(concerning reactors in Honorverse starships)

But the current state of single reactor ships just shows the maturity of the technology. the loss of the reactor is not a problem worth worrying about.

In a similiar logic, 4 engine passenger planes were previously dictated on Earth for intercontinental flight. In the 60's 4 or 5 crew members on the flight deck were required to to fly planes. (2 Pilots, 1 navigator, 1 radio operator and 1 engineeer.) Now, double engine planes with 2 crew members can fly nearly 10 thousand miles, why, the Engines are powerful enough and reliable enough that a single engine can limp a plane along reliably, and modern electronics made the nav, radio operator, and engineer positions unnecessary.

The 707 (which started service before 1960) only had 3 flight crew members (2 pilots, 1 engineer). Douglas DC-6 had 5 flight crew members, but it was being phased out by 1960.

tlb wrote:

kzt wrote:No, there is a lot 'this does not follow' in some of the deeper issues of the honorverse.

I do not disagree with your reasoning or figures; but I would like to know to what point you are specifically saying "NO".

I assume that it is the suggestion that the plasma can be low temperature, based on how hot you say it actually needs to be.

PS: It occurs to me that another problem with the low temperature plasma (that is heated up for use) is that the plasma is the only major source of power on the ship. So what drives the machine that heats up the plasma for use, is it electricity? There does need to be electricity generated at some point, to power all the electronics (you cannot feed plasma into molecular circuitry). That would seem reasonable, but it has two problems. I have already stated the first, it eliminates the need for plasma pipes; since plasma can be generated at the site on demand. The second is that there are inefficiencies in every process that changes one form of energy into another; so it would be more efficient to use the electricity directly in the weapon (or whatever, because that eliminates one conversion process).

It's contradictory to say we'll lower the temp and pressure. You have plasma at a density of 160 tons per cubic meter (which is immensely dense - 14 times as dense as lead) at say a mere 50 million degrees coming out of the reactor and being piped everywhere inside the ship. The reason you use this instead electricity is that you need absurd power density.

So a superconductor handling say 500,000V and 5000 amps is far to little. You need vastly more power and mere 2.5GW power cable. How do you provide this without enormous power density? And that means extremely hot and dense plasma.

Lets say you dilute it to mere 15 million K, where the fusion reaction is putting out very little power but might help make up for loses. I have no good info as to how fast hydrogen/helium plasma at the pressure needed to keep it a density 14x that of lead might expand, but I would expect it to be several KM/sec.

It will cool as it expands, but since the starting temperature is roughly that of a nuclear weapon, you can expect a few things. Like the x-rays emitted by the cooling gas. Which turns the air into an x-ray opaque plasma and heats it up a whole lot. So essentially, you get the fireball and shockwave of a nuclear weapon going off inside your ship. Luckily those close enough to get a dangerous radiation dose are almost certainly torn to shreds and vaporized.

Very dangerous, you go first.

At times like this I just look at the time frame.
About as far ahead of us as we are of the Greeks and Romans.
Pick up some of the brightest like Archimedes, drop them into a physics class today, and watch them flounder.
It is reasonable to assume that science and physics will progress at a similar or higher rate from now on. After all we hopefully won't have another Dark Ages if the printing press keeps working.
In that case, we at this point in time would have no hope of understanding what happens in the Honorverse ships. They essentially have perpetual motion, if you examine the physics involved in continuously accelerating 6 million tons at 500 gravities, so what else can they do?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Theemile wrote:Besides, if this is true, you would never turn off both reactors, one always being kept on while work was done on the 2nd. The worry would single reactor Merchies.

I was thinking of battle damage. You don't want to get a destroyer or light-cruiser stranded after a battle if both reactors shut down, if you can relight them.

But as you said, it might be that this condition is so uncommon, that the damage required to cause both to scram is so great, that it's not worthwhile having the starter motor aboard.

But the current state of single reactor ships just shows the maturity of the technology. the loss of the reactor is not a problem worth worrying about.

In a similiar logic, 4 engine passenger planes were previously dictated on Earth for intercontinental flight. In the 60's 4 or 5 crew members on the flight deck were required to to fly planes. (2 Pilots, 1 navigator, 1 radio operator and 1 engineeer.) Now, double engine planes with 2 crew members can fly nearly 10 thousand miles, why, the Engines are powerful enough and reliable enough that a single engine can limp a plane along reliably, and modern electronics made the nav, radio operator, and engineer positions unnecessary.

Wasn't the Lockheed Constellation dubbed "the most reliable tri-engine" because one was always faulty? I know I've seen this phrase before, but I can't find it any more to confirm it was about the Connies.

<snip>

The Connies were quad engine planes - I believe that was the comment of the Folker Tri-motor planes (or was it the Ford?)

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:That seems to imply that the plasma routed around the RMN destroyers of the 1540 wasn't very hot, wasn't under that much pressure, or else was present in such miniscule amounts in the conduits that venting into compartments allowed it to rapidly cool and expand without inflicting massive or catastrophic damage. (And that the emergency systems shut off the flow of additional plasma almost instantly, preventing the compartments from being steadily sprayed with fresh hot plasma)

I think the plasma can be awfully hot and yet have this result. All you need is for the mass of plasma moving through the conduit to be reasonably small. Remember, Boyle's Law--it's going to undergo tremendous cooling when it escapes into a compartment. Also, if the bodies show burns the air was awfully hot. I'm sure most of us have experienced short exposure to air at a few hundred degrees F and escaped without even first degree burns. It's going to take third degree burns for the damage to be apparent, thus the air was much hotter.

In my head I can only see the closest analog of what I have had experience with. High pressure steam pipes bursting. If you have ever seen high pressure steam pipes burst and you survived it without damage because you were nowhere near its effective burn zone , you are still thankful. The stuff's HOT!!!

In our example, textev says several plasma conduits ruptured during the attack.

Like I said before we received this shocking textev, I can't believe that at least one plasma conduit is not broken during every attack.

Also, textev says that the plasma had long since dissipated. Steam quickly dissipates too. But it continues to stream out as long as the source is feeding it. In a municipal water system, when there is a significant pressure drop, it is a certain indication of a busted water main. These are at least 6 inch pipes gushing water out as fast as the pressure will allow. It makes a pretty geyser in the middle of Main Street. But what do you do when firemen are fighting fires and they need that water supply and pressure.

Well, you just keep pumping at the plant. You even give them more pressure by shutting off valves that are feeding water to other sections of town. You know you are wasting water and providing a very impressive waterworks display. But currently, lives may depend on it.

When there is a broken plasma conduit(s), does the "pumping station" continue pumping plasma? A drop in pressure should also indicate a massive demand for plasma. Like when battle has been joined.

I agree with tlb, there has to be gravity containment.

In our case, if the reactor alone is responsible for everything (heating and propelling the plasma) then there is a very looooong lit fuse heading back to the reactor. Hence, in that passage the two heroes were worried that the reactor would blow.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Wasn't the dubbed "the most reliable tri-engine" because one was always faulty? I know I've seen this phrase before, but I can't find it any more to confirm it was about the Connies.

Theemile wrote:The Connies were quad engine planes - I believe that was the comment of the Folker Tri-motor planes (or was it the Ford?)

I did find these quotes:

Although Ford Tri-Motors have won a permanent place in history for their sturdy reliability, Henry Ford did not receive any honors for his aviation contributions during his lifetime. His remarkable accomplishments were finally recognized in 1984 by the National Aviation Hall of Fame, which enshrined him “for outstanding contributions to aviation by his leadership in the development and mass production of commercial and military aircraft and engines.”

the Ford Motor Company, along with other auto manufacturers, went on to build nearly 4,000 8- and 12-cylinder Liberty engines after the United States entered World War I. Ford’s major contribution to that effort was to reduce the cost of the engines by solving a serious problem with bearings in the crankcases and connecting rods.

Quotes are from: Ford's Forgotten Aviation Legacy

cthia wrote:When there is a broken plasma conduit(s), does the "pumping station" continue pumping plasma? A drop in pressure should also indicate a massive demand for plasma. Like when battle has been joined.

I agree with tlb, there has to be gravity containment.

In our case, if the reactor alone is responsible for everything (heating and propelling the plasma) then there is a very looooong lit fuse heading back to the reactor. Hence, in that passage the two heroes were worried that the reactor would blow.

That is why I think there must be emergency shutoff "valves" located at reasonable distances all along each pipe and pipe redundancy to critical areas. As you point out, having people worried that the reactor will blow from what they are doing, does indicate that the pipes lead back to the reactor as the plasma source.

I like KZT's description: the pipes (evacuated tubes forcibly containing charged plasma at their center line) are the power lines of the ship, distributing power as needed to all high energy devices (such as the wedge and weapons). Perhaps a motor generator could be used to create electricity in regular power lines for the electrical components.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:When there is a broken plasma conduit(s), does the "pumping station" continue pumping plasma? A drop in pressure should also indicate a massive demand for plasma. Like when battle has been joined.

I agree with tlb, there has to be gravity containment.

In our case, if the reactor alone is responsible for everything (heating and propelling the plasma) then there is a very looooong lit fuse heading back to the reactor. Hence, in that passage the two heroes were worried that the reactor would blow.

That is why I think there must be emergency shutoff "valves" located at reasonable distances all along each pipe and pipe redundancy to critical areas. As you point out, having people worried that the reactor will blow from what they are doing, does indicate that the pipes lead back to the reactor as the plasma source.

I like KZT's description: the pipes (evacuated tubes forcibly containing charged plasma at their center line) are the power lines of the ship, distributing power as needed to all high energy devices (such as the wedge and weapons). Perhaps a motor generator could be used to create electricity in regular power lines for the electrical components.

Agreed. But from my experience, shut off valves are only as good as their durability and the speed of their deployment. An explosive wave will propogate very quickly thru the pipe building energy. The valve has to operate very quickly and be very strong. Gravity valves should deploy as quickly as Star Trek's containment field when sections of the ship are exposed to space.

I still think the Cascade relays may supply the charge.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:When there is a broken plasma conduit(s), does the "pumping station" continue pumping plasma? A drop in pressure should also indicate a massive demand for plasma. Like when battle has been joined.

I agree with tlb, there has to be gravity containment.

In our case, if the reactor alone is responsible for everything (heating and propelling the plasma) then there is a very looooong lit fuse heading back to the reactor. Hence, in that passage the two heroes were worried that the reactor would blow.

That is why I think there must be emergency shutoff "valves" located at reasonable distances all along each pipe and pipe redundancy to critical areas. As you point out, having people worried that the reactor will blow from what they are doing, does indicate that the pipes lead back to the reactor as the plasma source.

I like KZT's description: the pipes (evacuated tubes forcibly containing charged plasma at their center line) are the power lines of the ship, distributing power as needed to all high energy devices (such as the wedge and weapons). Perhaps a motor generator could be used to create electricity in regular power lines for the electrical components.

In a previous conversation, we got confirmation from David that shipborne Energy torpedoes' used live plasma from a ship's reactor. (smaller plasma cannon used a laser confinement technique to create the plasma from hydrogen.) And the Capacitors used in Missiles are all over ships are plasma capacitors - not electrical.

The Plasma is everywhere.