Information I'd love to know

roseandheather wrote:

cthia wrote:If excrement hits the fan and schit simultaneously hits the rotary air impeller, our beloved President has his doomsday plane http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... r-war.html.

What is SOP for Elizabeth, Protector Benjamin, and President Pritchart during an attack, or a major invasion? Are they evacuated aboard atmospheric vehicles for long term survival and safety? It doesn't seem like underground bunkers would be an optimal contingency plan for standard operating procedure. I just always wondered where the heck do you put your Queen during a major invasion. You wouldn't want her taken out by errant debris or accidental tripping of Eridani Edict.

My best guess for Eloise is "park her in the middle of an unimpressed Capital Fleet" and let them deal with the problem, as - unlike Elizabeth - you can't shuffle her off to another planet in the same system. Or she could pull an Honor and get herself a small, hypercapable yacht - in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what Haven One is - and park her somewhere in hyperspace until the threat has been appropriately dealt with. Failing that, if there's not time to evacuate, bury her as far underground and surrounded by as much ceramacrete as humanly possible.

As for the Queen, shuffle her off to whichever planet is farthest away from the problem if there's time. If there's not, same as Eloise - bury her. (I would not at all be surprised to hear of a super-secret, super-secure, super-un-blow-upable, and very well-appointed bunker buried beneath Mount Royal.)

As for Benjamin... armsmen. Lots and lots of armsmen. Post the Manticoran Alliance, however, Option Bunker or Option Park Him In Hyperspace may also be viable.

fallsfromtrees wrote:We know from textev that Elizabeth's private yacht is something on the order of a BC. I would be very surprised if Haven One is not something similar.

It seems, however, that any contingency that involves entering into space falls under exposing one's Queen, hence, a bad move. Even if chance of running into a ship stealthily sitting in space is small, there's still a chance. And your Queen's goose is cooked.

Even ships dispatched to warn of a code zulu are at risk of unforeseen enemy attack. No?

I just see no reason of uncovering the Queen if you don't have to.

cthia wrote:It seems, however, that any contingency that involves entering into space falls under exposing one's Queen, hence, a bad move. Even if chance of running into a ship stealthily sitting in space is small, there's still a chance. And your Queen's goose is cooked.

Even ships dispatched to warn of a code zulu are at risk of unforeseen enemy attack. No?

I just see no reason of uncovering the Queen if you don't have to.

You can't have it both ways. There are only two options--either the Queen goes into a nearby bunker (which you have said is unwise), or you have to move the Queen, i.e. expose her. It doesn't matter whether you are moving her across the planet, to anther planet in the system, or another star system, it still exposes her. Moving her off the planet is really not any more dangerous than moving her across the planet. Aircraft and ground craft can be shot down. Getting her onto something as well protected as a modified BC(P) with support craft is as safe as flying her to a bunker on another continent. Maybe safer, if there is actually a possibility of planetary invasion.

To answer Cthia's question, I doubt that there is just one emergency plan for either planetary leader. There are probably multiple contingencies, depending on the nature of the danger. There should be different responses to a simple assassination attempt, a WMD terrorist attack on the capital, a threatened Eridani Edict violation, an imminent planetary invasion, a coup attempt, and so on. And the contingencies would change depending on whether the leader is at home, is traveling, is on a member world, is at the hospital, . . . These are the things that their security forces are constantly evaluating, updating, and devising as the situation changes.

JohnRoth wrote:

Greentea wrote:I'd love to know precisely what was wrong with Francesca Simoes. It was described in the book as "autism-like."

My personal head-cannon is that mathematics ability and empathic ability exist on similar mental channels, so it is hard to be good at both and they can spoof each other on aptitude tests. This would help explain why Honor sucks at higher math, as do treecats, but both are telempaths.

I wonder if the issue with Francesca was a sudden decrease in tested math ability. It would be deliciously ironic if the MAlign had been accidentally eliminating all of their proto-telempaths because the Forward Planning Committee didn't know how to spot the ability as it manifests. I can't wait for the MAlign to kick itself when it that learns Honor is a telempath and they accidentally eliminated most of the genetic line so it will be hard to figure out the mutations involved. It will also be fun when they analyze her intelligence profile (including scholastic performance) and realize what it resembles.

You may be thinking of Asperger's Syndrome, where relatively high intellectual performance is coupled with an inability to handle social cues properly. While it's classified as autism, that's only because the classifiers are dumping a lot of different conditions into the same bucket - nobody knows the underlying mechanisms of any of them.

As kzt said, Francisca Simoes' symptoms were similar to classic childhood autism, where the personality gradually regresses to an eventual vegetative state.

High functioning Autism is similar to Asperger's.

Latest research is pointing towards Autistic children being overloaded with social cues, and stimulation in general, and thus ignoring them.
Pattern behavior being a way of blocking the overstimulation out.
Apsy children tend to become so engrossed that they don't realise that the person they are interacting with doesn't share their interest. Again I suspect that that focus is a coping mechanism for over stimulation.

In the case of Francesca it's harder to be certain. It's more like they pushed things so far that they invented a new disorder so to speak. But she is more Autistic than Aspy.
It could even be that the marh she was doing was her over stimulation and that she shut down to get away from it.

Hi SWM,

I don't see going to space being much of a solution, since if captured or killed the invaders could claim victory or that the system had effectively surrendered by the loss of the system leadership, if not ransomed by the system's surrender.

Given what we saw at Meyers, a prudent invader could track and stop any attempted escape even if it was only to Gryphon, and I don't consider the Duke of Cromarty that great of an addition to the power of Home Fleet.

A very very deep hole someplace could be an effective C^3I HQ alternative.

L

SWM wrote:To answer Cthia's question, I doubt that there is just one emergency plan for either planetary leader. There are probably multiple contingencies, depending on the nature of the danger. There should be different responses to a simple assassination attempt, a WMD terrorist attack on the capital, a threatened Eridani Edict violation, an imminent planetary invasion, a coup attempt, and so on. And the contingencies would change depending on whether the leader is at home, is traveling, is on a member world, is at the hospital, . . . These are the things that their security forces are constantly evaluating, updating, and devising as the situation changes.

cthia wrote:If excrement hits the fan and schit simultaneously hits the rotary air impeller, our beloved President has his doomsday plane http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... r-war.html.

What is SOP for Elizabeth, Protector Benjamin, and President Pritchart during an attack, or a major invasion? Are they evacuated aboard atmospheric vehicles for long term survival and safety? It doesn't seem like underground bunkers would be an optimal contingency plan for standard operating procedure. I just always wondered where the heck do you put your Queen during a major invasion. You wouldn't want her taken out by errant debris or accidental tripping of Eridani Edict.

roseandheather wrote:
My best guess for Eloise is "park her in the middle of an unimpressed Capital Fleet" and let them deal with the problem, as - unlike Elizabeth - you can't shuffle her off to another planet in the same system. Or she could pull an Honor and get herself a small, hypercapable yacht - in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what Haven One is - and park her somewhere in hyperspace until the threat has been appropriately dealt with. Failing that, if there's not time to evacuate, bury her as far underground and surrounded by as much ceramacrete as humanly possible.

As for the Queen, shuffle her off to whichever planet is farthest away from the problem if there's time. If there's not, same as Eloise - bury her. (I would not at all be surprised to hear of a super-secret, super-secure, super-un-blow-upable, and very well-appointed bunker buried beneath Mount Royal.)

As for Benjamin... armsmen. Lots and lots of armsmen. Post the Manticoran Alliance, however, Option Bunker or Option Park Him In Hyperspace may also be viable.

fallsfromtrees wrote:We know from textev that Elizabeth's private yacht is something on the order of a BC. I would be very surprised if Haven One is not something similar.

Haven is based on the United States to a certain extent. That said, I suspect that Haven One might actually be a call sign that goes with President of Republic of Haven, just as Air Force One, Army One, and Marine One are aircraft call signs that are used only when the President of the United States is on board the aircraft (fixed wing or rotary). I'm not sure of how it works for naval ships, though, as they (unlike aircraft) have actual names that wouldn't change just because the President is on board.

Greentea wrote:I'd love to know precisely what was wrong with Francesca Simoes. It was described in the book as "autism-like."

My personal head-cannon is that mathematics ability and empathic ability exist on similar mental channels, so it is hard to be good at both and they can spoof each other on aptitude tests. This would help explain why Honor sucks at higher math, as do treecats, but both are telempaths.

I wonder if the issue with Francesca was a sudden decrease in tested math ability. It would be deliciously ironic if the MAlign had been accidentally eliminating all of their proto-telempaths because the Forward Planning Committee didn't know how to spot the ability as it manifests. I can't wait for the MAlign to kick itself when it that learns Honor is a telempath and they accidentally eliminated most of the genetic line so it will be hard to figure out the mutations involved. It will also be fun when they analyze her intelligence profile (including scholastic performance) and realize what it resembles.

JohnRoth wrote:You may be thinking of Asperger's Syndrome, where relatively high intellectual performance is coupled with an inability to handle social cues properly. While it's classified as autism, that's only because the classifiers are dumping a lot of different conditions into the same bucket - nobody knows the underlying mechanisms of any of them.

As kzt said, Francisca Simoes' symptoms were similar to classic childhood autism, where the personality gradually regresses to an eventual vegetative state.

Annachie wrote:High functioning Autism is similar to Asperger's.

"High functioning autism" is Asperger's Syndrome. They just changed the name to make it fit in with "Autistic Spectrum disorder."

Annachie wrote:Latest research is pointing towards Autistic children being overloaded with social cues, and stimulation in general, and thus ignoring them.
Pattern behavior being a way of blocking the overstimulation out.
Apsy children tend to become so engrossed that they don't realise that the person they are interacting with doesn't share their interest. Again I suspect that that focus is a coping mechanism for over stimulation.

I consider this "explanation" to be simply something pulled out of the air to cover the real explanation: they have no clue what's actually going on.

If you want to look at a report on real recent research, here's one: http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/ ... -diversity .

It's a start at disentangling all the different problems that have been dumped into the 'autism' bucket.

Annachie wrote:In the case of Francesca it's harder to be certain. It's more like they pushed things so far that they invented a new disorder so to speak. But she is more Autistic than Aspy.

It could even be that the marh she was doing was her over stimulation and that she shut down to get away from it.

What the authors were trying to describe is "classic" childhood autism, where the personality will develop for a while, and then regress, leaving the child essentially a vegetable, so they can give Herlander Simoes a believable excuse for going off the rails. Autism is extremely stressful for the parents, who are quite likely to blame themselves or turn to actively harmful pseudo-science like the anti-vaxers.

I personally find this entire episode not only distasteful but unbelievable. Two thousand years of development on a planet that is well known for biological expertise and they can't work through the genetics and brain function to find out what's happening? They know something might go wrong, so they aren't monitoring it on a biological level continuously? They don't know enough about the detailed cellular level and developmental programs to be able to throw together a patch when they see something going wrong?

The way the field is developing, I can see being able to do all of that on a routine basis within the next century.

They don't have the elementary knowledge of psychology to know that giving people real explanations tends to ease the pain?

Give me a break.

lyonheart wrote:Hi SWM,

I don't see going to space being much of a solution, since if captured or killed the invaders could claim victory or that the system had effectively surrendered by the loss of the system leadership, if not ransomed by the system's surrender.

Given what we saw at Meyers, a prudent invader could track and stop any attempted escape even if it was only to Gryphon, and I don't consider the Duke of Cromarty that great of an addition to the power of Home Fleet.

A very very deep hole someplace could be an effective C^3I HQ alternative.

L

I agree that in some circumstances taking the leader into space is the wrong solution. In other cases, it would be a good solution. An example would be a threatened terrorist WMD attack on the capital and other cities. That's why I said that there would be multiple contingencies.

SWM wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi SWM,

I don't see going to space being much of a solution, since if captured or killed the invaders could claim victory or that the system had effectively surrendered by the loss of the system leadership, if not ransomed by the system's surrender.

Given what we saw at Meyers, a prudent invader could track and stop any attempted escape even if it was only to Gryphon, and I don't consider the Duke of Cromarty that great of an addition to the power of Home Fleet.

A very very deep hole someplace could be an effective C^3I HQ alternative.

L

I agree that in some circumstances taking the leader into space is the wrong solution. In other cases, it would be a good solution. An example would be a threatened terrorist WMD attack on the capital and other cities. That's why I said that there would be multiple contingencies.

I understand from the story that Francesca's problen were the consequence of genetic tinkering gone arwy... a failed experiment discarded.

Don

lyonheart wrote:Hi SWM,

I don't see going to space being much of a solution, since if captured or killed the invaders could claim victory or that the system had effectively surrendered by the loss of the system leadership, if not ransomed by the system's surrender.

Given what we saw at Meyers, a prudent invader could track and stop any attempted escape even if it was only to Gryphon, and I don't consider the Duke of Cromarty that great of an addition to the power of Home Fleet.

A very very deep hole someplace could be an effective C^3I HQ alternative.

L

This is my take on it as well. Moving your Queen into space needlessly exposes her to possible direct fire from enemy SD's and just doesn't sound too atrractive an option. A deep hole is questionable as well, with bunker busting ordnance the Honorverse is certain to have. But an atmospheric ship heavily defended against other atmospheric threats seem practical. Airforce One doesn't have to worry about other atmospheric threats so much as ICBM's. I would think the Manties would have an atmospheric version of Airforce One, especially considering superior Manty ECM.

SWM wrote:To answer Cthia's question, I doubt that there is just one emergency plan for either planetary leader. There are probably multiple contingencies, depending on the nature of the danger. There should be different responses to a simple assassination attempt, a WMD terrorist attack on the capital, a threatened Eridani Edict violation, an imminent planetary invasion, a coup attempt, and so on. And the contingencies would change depending on whether the leader is at home, is traveling, is on a member world, is at the hospital, . . . These are the things that their security forces are constantly evaluating, updating, and devising as the situation changes.