Battle of Spindle

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:My guess is self-destruct could be just turning off the containment on the micro-fusion power plant and letting the plasma tear the missile apart.

Theemile wrote:That will work NOW, for Manty missiles - for everyone else, they probably just use the warhead.

That would work for an ordinary missile; but for the Mark 23-E and drones with the FTL communication system (and any other secret missile without a warhead), there needs to be a failsafe destruct method. Using the fusion reactor would be an elegant solution.

I'd say a Mark 23-E up the kilt shot letting go of its fusion reactor should destroy a warship in a last ditch effort.

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:That would work for an ordinary missile; but for the Mark 23-E and drones with the FTL communication system (and any other secret missile without a warhead), there needs to be a failsafe destruct method. Using the fusion reactor would be an elegant solution.

I'd say a Mark 23-E up the kilt shot letting go of its fusion reactor should destroy a warship in a last ditch effort.

If it physically impacted, (or its wedge made contact) sure. Though then the reactor is nearly superfluous. But a Sag-C is designed to survived a Mk-16s reactor getting breached in the launch tube, and minimize the damage spear enough to keep it from cascading through the other tubes in that broadside. If th internal cofferdaming can do that I doubt a micrfusion reactor failure near the external armor of on SD is going to do major damage to the ship. And one going off at even “boom mode” warhead distances of 10 km or so won’t do much at all (Assuming it survived that far against PDLCs). Plus to get a up the kilt attack vector without that standoff range to hit from past the edge of the wedge (at least 200 km) requires the target to be running almost directly away from you; the 23E can’t turn a corner to pull off a up the kilt on a target that’s broadside on to the attack.

Still, I suspect most 23Es are going to try to ram after their brood attacks, however ineffective that might be. If nothing else it should cause the enemy to divert point defense from other more dangerous targets (since they can’t risk some sneaky tac witch might send a trailing contact nuke just pretending to be a harmless 23E). And if the attack birds do enough damage to knock down the target’s sidewall then the 23E’s wedge could destroy the damaged target. So no reason not to try to ram. The self destruct would be reserved for if you didn’t have any target you could ram (or you receive the abort order because the enemy struck they wedges)

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:That would work for an ordinary missile; but for the Mark 23-E and drones with the FTL communication system (and any other secret missile without a warhead), there needs to be a failsafe destruct method. Using the fusion reactor would be an elegant solution.

I'd say a Mark 23-E up the kilt shot letting go of its fusion reactor should destroy a warship in a last ditch effort.

Jonathan_S wrote:If it physically impacted, (or its wedge made contact) sure. Though then the reactor is nearly superfluous. But a Sag-C is designed to survived a Mk-16s reactor getting breached in the launch tube, and minimize the damage spear enough to keep it from cascading through the other tubes in that broadside. If th internal cofferdaming can do that I doubt a micrfusion reactor failure near the external armor of on SD is going to do major damage to the ship. And one going off at even “boom mode” warhead distances of 10 km or so won’t do much at all (Assuming it survived that far against PDLCs). Plus to get a up the kilt attack vector without that standoff range to hit from past the edge of the wedge (at least 200 km) requires the target to be running almost directly away from you; the 23E can’t turn a corner to pull off a up the kilt on a target that’s broadside on to the attack.

Still, I suspect most 23Es are going to try to ram after their brood attacks, however ineffective that might be. If nothing else it should cause the enemy to divert point defense from other more dangerous targets (since they can’t risk some sneaky tac witch might send a trailing contact nuke just pretending to be a harmless 23E). And if the attack birds do enough damage to knock down the target’s sidewall then the 23E’s wedge could destroy the damaged target. So no reason not to try to ram. The self destruct would be reserved for if you didn’t have any target you could ram (or you receive the abort order because the enemy struck they wedges)

Understood. FYI, I almost changed it to mission kill or cripple. I only see it as a one-off. There are a few one-offs in storyline. Or "one hit wonders" if you prefer. It's just that it'd make an interesting addition to storyline if it happened. I have no worries about the Wizard's ability to pull it off -- in that rare case where the situation might present itself. Providence.

One thing I failed to add in my assumptions. As director of the brood, the Mark 23-E does not execute its reserve for final maneuvers following the choir in. So should have something left in its own tank for final attack maneuvers? Hey, who the hell knows what design flaw Solly ships, or MAlign ships might have -- totally referencing the flaw in Star War's Death Star. Hollywood baggage.

I also entertain the possibility of that demon Murphy intervening and classified parts surviving the tactic, delivering trade secrets right to the enemy.

cthia wrote:One thing I failed to add in my assumptions. As director of the brood, the Mark 23-E does not execute its reserve for final maneuvers following the choir in. So should have something left in its own tank for final attack maneuvers? Hey, who the hell knows what design flaw Solly ships, or MAlign ships might have -- totally referencing the flaw in Star War's Death Star. Hollywood baggage.

I also entertain the possibility of that demon Murphy intervening and classified parts surviving the tactic, delivering trade secrets right to the enemy.

I’d also assume they’d usually have some time on their drives. But there’s no inertialless drives here, so on a normal attack profile they’ve probably spent 7-8 minutes building a vector towards the enemy. With the best will in the world the remaining minute or two can’t diflect that course that much. Enough to plow into whatever aspect of the target is facing them; probably (unless the led their brood to make a snap shot as they overflow it (in case it’s rolled wedge towards them or they were trying to pinch laserheads down the throat by flying across its nose). But enough to hang a nearly 90 degree turn and fly down the 20km wide tunnel between the sidewalks to execute an up the kilt attack- not even close.

But yes, even ramming straight in will occasionally find a gap not covered by active sidewall and where point defense misses or is out of commission. So there’s no reason not to try to hit when it’s wothibg the Mk23Es manouvering envelope after its attack birds have had their turn.

Jonathan_S wrote:So there’s no reason not to try to hit when it’s wothibg the Mk23Es manouvering envelope after its attack birds have had their turn.

The only thin a Mk23E can do that is "wortwile" is to ensure the missile is destroyed: attack a wedge, fly into an asteroid, or the like. Ant chance that the missile might leave a single bigger than a micron is too risky.

Dauntless wrote:if Michelle had even 2 podnoughts she would likely have been more willing to get fancy. As the biggest true combat ships she had were BCs, she didn't want to get too fancy, and decided that the statement of 1 immense salvo doing serious damage to the SLN fleet was was of more value then finding exactly how many hits a solly SD could take or just how poor its EW and PD was.

And remember her targeting was intended to take her targets out of the battle, not to blow them out of space. Her missiles were far more effective than she expected.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I'd say a Mark 23-E up the kilt shot letting go of its fusion reactor should destroy a warship in a last ditch effort.

If it physically impacted, (or its wedge made contact) sure. Though then the reactor is nearly superfluous.

I've been saying this for years. The kinetic energy of a MDM makes the contact heads of old look like wet firecrackers. Missiles that don't blow themselves to bits should be trying to ram unless that means they would be in the way of lasers. Any non-trivial contact should destroy even a SD and I doubt sidewalls would provide much protection.

Still, I suspect most 23Es are going to try to ram after their brood attacks, however ineffective that might be. If nothing else it should cause the enemy to divert point defense from other more dangerous targets (since they can’t risk some sneaky tac witch might send a trailing contact nuke just pretending to be a harmless 23E). And if the attack birds do enough damage to knock down the target’s sidewall then the 23E’s wedge could destroy the damaged target. So no reason not to try to ram. The self destruct would be reserved for if you didn’t have any target you could ram (or you receive the abort order because the enemy struck they wedges)

I don't think it's going to use up point defense. Missiles are fired so the whole wave comes through the defense zone at once. Every laser in the cluster will fire when the birds enter range, a MDM will cross the inner zone before the lasers recharge. It's got an unopposed shot at the ship, limited only by geometry. However, if the defenders rolled their wedge the inert birds (not just the -E's but the EW birds also) are certainly out of position to ram.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:When referencing Admiral Henke, Queen Elizebeth, Abigail Hearnes or Honor Harrington, the image of not wearing panties appeals to me. In reference to AAdmiral Crandall, not so much. My impression of Admiral Crandall is that she is a very large, brutal woman whom is beholden to Manpower and Mesa because she has an appetite for Genetic Sex Slaves that seldom survive an encounter with her.

Yeah, I have no interest in the thought of her without panties. I was just pointing out that in space combat there's no issue of needing to change them.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:One thing I failed to add in my assumptions. As director of the brood, the Mark 23-E does not execute its reserve for final maneuvers following the choir in. So should have something left in its own tank for final attack maneuvers? Hey, who the hell knows what design flaw Solly ships, or MAlign ships might have -- totally referencing the flaw in Star War's Death Star. Hollywood baggage.

I also entertain the possibility of that demon Murphy intervening and classified parts surviving the tactic, delivering trade secrets right to the enemy.

I’d also assume they’d usually have some time on their drives. But there’s no inertialless drives here, so on a normal attack profile they’ve probably spent 7-8 minutes building a vector towards the enemy. With the best will in the world the remaining minute or two can’t diflect that course that much. Enough to plow into whatever aspect of the target is facing them; probably (unless the led their brood to make a snap shot as they overflow it (in case it’s rolled wedge towards them or they were trying to pinch laserheads down the throat by flying across its nose). But enough to hang a nearly 90 degree turn and fly down the 20km wide tunnel between the sidewalks to execute an up the kilt attack- not even close.

But yes, even ramming straight in will occasionally find a gap not covered by active sidewall and where point defense misses or is out of commission. So there’s no reason not to try to hit when it’s wothibg the Mk23Es manouvering envelope after its attack birds have had their turn.

Agreed, it all makes sense as you've presented it. But again, in those rare cases of providence, possible. If an enemy ship suddenly makes a stupid maneuver out of inexperience, stupidity or desperation right into the line of sight of an MK 23-E, the fun can begin. It might also be used to destroy external subsystems that might crop up in the future, like the Apollo system itself which is deployed outside the wedge and suspended by tractor beams.

cthia wrote:Agreed, it all makes sense as you've presented it. But again, in those rare cases of providence, possible. If an enemy ship suddenly makes a stupid maneuver out of inexperience, stupidity or desperation right into the line of sight of an MK 23-E, the fun can begin. It might also be used to destroy external subsystems that might crop up in the future, like the Apollo system itself which is deployed outside the wedge and suspended by tractor beams.

It occurs to me, there's a good target for ramming that very well might be in range and will be outside the wedge: Decoys. Blowing them won't do you any good on this volley but unless it's a one-salvo kill situation blowing them will help the next missiles.