Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay

Dane Dryss wrote:The impeller wedge is not a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker". If so the PRH would have used it on planets not loyal.

There are lots of relatively simple ways to wipe out a planet with Honorverse tech (pretty much any Honorverse warship is capable of doing so, in fact; heck, given a suicidal crew, pretty much any Honorverse merchant ship can manage it). They have not been used because the Erindari Edict means the wrath of the Solarian League will fall on anyone who does it.

The destruction of the Solarian League will almost certainly lead to at least some isolated outbreaks of acts that would violate the Erindari Edict if the League still existed. While it's possible that the Grand Alliance, or even the Mesan Renaissance Factor, will attempt to punish such acts, until a new mechanism formalizing the response to planet-killing attacks (and the Star Empire will insist an Oyster Bay-style attack does fall under the definition in anything they set up or sign) it's much more likely rogue star systems will think they can get away things like that.

Dane Dryss wrote:And the tech? The Sollies have the facilities to make weapons and ships. So it will only be a year or maybe two before they get into production tech near as good as Manticore.

The Mesa Allignment, which has been working at reverse engineering the RMN's systems for many years, still doesn't even have a prototype of an MDM. They are still years away from being able to make even one. They can make some very clever glued together stuff, but it isn't suitable to fight the RMN and they know it.

They don't have the FTL tech of the RMN from 15 years ago, or even the Peep FTL tech.

It's extremely unlikely that anyone else in the SL is ahead of the Mesa Alignment in R&D on Haven sector weapons.

kzt wrote:

Dane Dryss wrote:And the tech? The Sollies have the facilities to make weapons and ships. So it will only be a year or maybe two before they get into production tech near as good as Manticore.

The Mesa Allignment, which has been working at reverse engineering the RMN's systems for many years, still doesn't even have a prototype of an MDM. They are still years away from being able to make even one. They can make some very clever glued together stuff, but it isn't suitable to fight the RMN and they know it.

They don't have the FTL tech of the RMN from 15 years ago, or even the Peep FTL tech.

It's extremely unlikely that anyone else in the SL is ahead of the Mesa Alignment in R&D on Haven sector weapons.

Yes but when someone with the resources that the Sollies have know that something can be done, they will get it done. Look how fast Haven got MDM after the Manties showed it off. Granted Haven was looking down at its own destruction if they made any diplomatic mistakes (which they did but not by the President). But just because Mesa can not do it does not mean that the Sollies can not do it. Three Governments have MDM. Are you telling me that with the money and power of the SL that they can not get the tech from anyone of the three through individual people?

As far as Haven helping with Manticore system defense for the imminent SL attack, it immediately occured to me that there is plenty of leftover Haven hardware that was captured at the Battle of Manticore AND the crews to man them - namely Lester Tourville and the rest of the prisoners of war. I wonder if they will make an appearance in the next "episode"?

Dane Dryss wrote:[ Are you telling me that with the money and power of the SL that they can not get the tech from anyone of the three through individual people?

This is assuming that the SL exists as such in the medium future. If Manticore refrains from massive attacks there would be no reason for significant numbers of ex League worlds to band together to defend themselves.

Star Knight wrote:To make it worse your forces are of poorer quality, the Arabs got the latest Soviet stuff while Israel had a mixture of French armaments and old second world war equipment.

I gotta nitpick a little here.

The Israeli air force was plane-for-plane superior in quality, even leaving aside the better trained pilots. They got air superiority right away and used it to devastating effect. Yes, they did a "sneak attack" but the Arab airplanes were nothing special. They were at least a generation behind what the Soviets were using (which means they were likely contemporary with the NATO past-generation airplanes the Israelis were using, and that means a tech edge, as the Soviets were always behind during the cold war). To make matters worse for the Arabs, the Israelis got their hands on a typical plane due to a defector and had practical experience with the limitations of the MIG-21 design.

The tanks used by the Israelis were pretty good quality post-WWII designs, the Centurion in particular had been outfitted with a very good 105mm gun and a flat trajectory which translated into a significantly better effective range. The Egyptians were using mostly WWII surplus Soviet stuff, late war models like the T34-85 and the Su-100 tank destroyer.

The difference in tech level stacked on the difference in crew quality lead to a 2-1 kill ratio in favor of the Israelis in head-to-head combat with roughly comparable numbers.

The Jordanians were using pretty much the same equipment for tanks as the Israelis, both sides having slightly aged western designs. The Jordanians did not have the benefit of the 105mm guns that the Israelis favored whenever they could cram it on a chasse. Their 24 airplanes were rated about equal to the best Israeli Mirage planes.

The Israelis didn't get the kind of crushing victory against the Jordanians they got against Egypt, but their use of air power turned slowed things down and turned it into a stalemate that lasted throughout the conflict.

The Syrians were just so bad, especially their officers, that even though they had a solid defensive setup and were well protected from air power they were pushed out anyway. That was a case of just better quality troops, as it was mostly an infantry/artillery conflict and there wasn't anything significantly different between the forces.

Duckk wrote:The amount of hyperbole used to describe Lacoon reminds me of the discussions we had of Oyster Bay where people were claiming the entire Manticore system would soon fall apart due to lack of maintenance and starvation would prowl all the planets. Yes Lacoon is going to put the thumbscrews on the League economy. No it's not going to directly lead to the mass starvation of the entire League.

The fact that Montana exports beef is not indicative of food supply of the entire League. Beef is a luxury item. It's expensive to raise since they both need to be fed, raised, then slaughtered. They are a land intensive animal because they both need space to roam, and there's also the space required to raise the food to feed the cow. Shipping the beef back to markets in the League isn't a problem since good beef is aged for 1 or 2 months before being cooked, so sitting in a freighter is not a problem.

Plant foods, on the otherhand, are fairly cheap to bring to market from local sources. Hydroponics and orbital farms have been mentioned as cheap areas for growing food even if there is no land on the planet to grow it. Fresh food also go bad unless preserved somehow (freezing, canning, etc). I'm sure most people would prefer having fresh food at least some of the time compared to a diet of all frozen or preserved food.

Taking the two statements above, it is not unreasonable to assume that while some food is imported, much of it is produced locally.

I'm not even sure how much food those planets need to import. Back in the '60s and '70s they said we wouldn't be able to feed 4 billion (or some number around that) here we are at over 6 billion and we produce plenty of food, distribution isn't the best, but the food exists.

It doesn't take much food growth to keep feeding the population.

Thirdbase wrote:

Duckk wrote:The amount of hyperbole used to describe Lacoon reminds me of the discussions we had of Oyster Bay where people were claiming the entire Manticore system would soon fall apart due to lack of maintenance and starvation would prowl all the planets. Yes Lacoon is going to put the thumbscrews on the League economy. No it's not going to directly lead to the mass starvation of the entire League.

The fact that Montana exports beef is not indicative of food supply of the entire League. Beef is a luxury item. It's expensive to raise since they both need to be fed, raised, then slaughtered. They are a land intensive animal because they both need space to roam, and there's also the space required to raise the food to feed the cow. Shipping the beef back to markets in the League isn't a problem since good beef is aged for 1 or 2 months before being cooked, so sitting in a freighter is not a problem.

Plant foods, on the otherhand, are fairly cheap to bring to market from local sources. Hydroponics and orbital farms have been mentioned as cheap areas for growing food even if there is no land on the planet to grow it. Fresh food also go bad unless preserved somehow (freezing, canning, etc). I'm sure most people would prefer having fresh food at least some of the time compared to a diet of all frozen or preserved food.

Taking the two statements above, it is not unreasonable to assume that while some food is imported, much of it is produced locally.

I'm not even sure how much food those planets need to import. Back in the '60s and '70s they said we wouldn't be able to feed 4 billion (or some number around that) here we are at over 6 billion and we produce plenty of food, distribution isn't the best, but the food exists.

It doesn't take much food growth to keep feeding the population.

I honestly can't believe ANY planet would import food. It all comes down to available energy and how cheep it is. Energy = water. IE desalination. Free energy = Free Water. Since this is a fusion society Energy = "Free" = "Free water" for high intensity farming.

Take wheat farming for instance. Dry "traditional wheat farming" obtain 3-4x LESS wheat than wet wheat farming. It all comes down to availability of water. With free energy one can pump the needed water ANYWHERE one wants to farm. Take Desserts for instance. Make it automated for most farming. If energy were free even a small portion of african Dessert would feed the entire world with its year long growing season.

Even if the population was 10X what it is today. As the vast majority of land surface is not used for farming due to its aridness this problem vanishes. Fact is the most key ingredient is potassium as nitrogen fertilizer for growing plants is tied directly to Energy as well as its NH3 ammonia nitrates. With free energy this can be processed directly out of the air and plant matter or the ocean itself. Gets back to desalination. Also obtains your H3 needed for said fusion as well...

drothgery wrote:

Dane Dryss wrote:The impeller wedge is not a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker". If so the PRH would have used it on planets not loyal.

There are lots of relatively simple ways to wipe out a planet with Honorverse tech (pretty much any Honorverse warship is capable of doing so, in fact; heck, given a suicidal crew, pretty much any Honorverse merchant ship can manage it). They have not been used because the Erindari Edict means the wrath of the Solarian League will fall on anyone who does it.

The destruction of the Solarian League will almost certainly lead to at least some isolated outbreaks of acts that would violate the Erindari Edict if the League still existed. While it's possible that the Grand Alliance, or even the Mesan Renaissance Factor, will attempt to punish such acts, until a new mechanism formalizing the response to planet-killing attacks (and the Star Empire will insist an Oyster Bay-style attack does fall under the definition in anything they set up or sign) it's much more likely rogue star systems will think they can get away things like that.

Yes I think the Honourverse is going to enter a new dark age until that is some new balance of power establishes it self.

After all not even SEM is going to chase down some rogue planet when all their resources are being used to hold off the the Mesians

Having said that the threat of an Eridini edict will drive neutral planets into both SEM and the Mesian alignment as small players will be seeking defensive pacts with stronger Star nations.

particularly league planets that have spent a pittance on their SDF because they "knew" that the SLN was the biggest and the best in the universe.

Alistair wrote:

drothgery wrote:

Dane Dryss wrote:The impeller wedge is not a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker". If so the PRH would have used it on planets not loyal.

There are lots of relatively simple ways to wipe out a planet with Honorverse tech (pretty much any Honorverse warship is capable of doing so, in fact; heck, given a suicidal crew, pretty much any Honorverse merchant ship can manage it). They have not been used because the Erindari Edict means the wrath of the Solarian League will fall on anyone who does it.

The destruction of the Solarian League will almost certainly lead to at least some isolated outbreaks of acts that would violate the Erindari Edict if the League still existed. While it's possible that the Grand Alliance, or even the Mesan Renaissance Factor, will attempt to punish such acts, until a new mechanism formalizing the response to planet-killing attacks (and the Star Empire will insist an Oyster Bay-style attack does fall under the definition in anything they set up or sign) it's much more likely rogue star systems will think they can get away things like that.

Yes I think the Honourverse is going to enter a new dark age until that is some new balance of power establishes it self.

After all not even SEM is going to chase down some rogue planet when all their resources are being used to hold off the the Mesians

Having said that the threat of an Eridini edict will drive neutral planets into both SEM and the Mesian alignment as small players will be seeking defensive pacts with stronger Star nations.

particularly league planets that have spent a pittance on their SDF because they "knew" that the SLN was the biggest and the best in the universe.

And judging by the quote in SFTS that Crandells force is larger than 95% of all SL worlds, this above statement is truly applicable to MOST SL worlds.