-SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes

Slneezy wrote:
As for Beowulf: they deliberately held back info on Manticoran capabilities way before Byng got blown up.

Beowulf didn't collaborate with the Mandarins in good faith the way Canada and the UK or even the US and the UK (or other NATO members do). They didn't give them the info they very much needed; they even did their own anti-Mesa black ops entirely separate from the League's structures. That's despite the League being more than a tad tighter than the Commonwealth and a 700 year old history between Beowulf and the League.

Let's not forget this is set after 4000 AD, right? It isn't about Canada, the Commonwealth system, the US, or even the former Warsaw Pact. The original Manti settlers, like most people outbound from Old Earth, wanted OUT.

Actually, there was never a time in the history of the League when the SOVEREIGN MEMBER SYSTEMS owed anything to the bureaucrats. The League owed its existence to THEM. And there is no awareness on behalf of the local citizen that they ought to pay attention to the League--after all, all the League Members are just like them, right?

I think you missed the part of the story in which the Mandarins sidetracked the Beowulf Assembly reps by not allowing a quorum, by having a paid hack (Reid) introduce a bundle of emotional but irrelevant idiocy to confuse the public, the way the Mandarins ignored the Constitution altogether in assembling the forces to attack Manticore without ever attempting to legally justify it to the public (ie., getting a vote out of the Assembly); or the countless Eridani Edict violations they were willing to ignore in the Protectorates.. . . The point being, the Mandarins' rule is illegal, the Protectorate System is illegal, and the League bureaucracies have forgotten to keep their heads down so the public never becomes aware of what, exactly, they do. Since they have ignored the written Constitution for so long, they --and all the idiots in the SLN--all seem to think their personal authority is endless.

The trouble is, no one has actually held ANY of them, in the ministries or the Navy, accountable for any action they did. For over seven centuries.

As far as Beowulf not passing info about the RMN on to the SLN, first, it is not their job to do ONI's work for them; second, they likely signed non-disclosure agreements along with the military/junction joint defense treaty. So UNLESS THE LEAGUE ISSUES A DECLARATION OF WAR, Beowulf not only has the legal, but the moral responsibility not to pass on anything they know. And the SLN never asked, or they could have been told about it. Centuries ago.

Remember too, that while the Manticoran settlers were en route to Manticore, 600 years of Solarian stupidity happened including the Final War, the creation of the Solarian League (a nation with a lot of representatives without any power to constrain the bureaucrats--NOT a democracy at all), they had already set up OFS and were treating non-Solarian systems like crap. They would have gotten a pretty good rundown on all that from the MCT people waiting for them when they arrived in Manticore. ALL OF THAT has been background to the Solarian relationship with Manticore from the beginning of the Kingdom, five hundred years ago. A little added personal emphasis comes by way of Axelrod's little adventure in Manticore--Axelrod of Terra, that is. The only reason Beowulf held on so long in the League was a combination of wishful thinking, and sheer inertia. Apparently they were attempting to get a constitutional convention together for centuries, in order to correct some of the fundamental structural deficiencies of the League as it was constituted.

Frankly, all the wasted rhetoric in the assembly should have caused an mass exodus even before Detweiler left for Mesa.

YMMV, of course. Regards,

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Slneezy wrote:
As for Beowulf: they deliberately held back info on Manticoran capabilities way before Byng got blown up.

Beowulf didn't collaborate with the Mandarins in good faith the way Canada and the UK or even the US and the UK (or other NATO members do). They didn't give them the info they very much needed; they even did their own anti-Mesa black ops entirely separate from the League's structures. That's despite the League being more than a tad tighter than the Commonwealth and a 700 year old history between Beowulf and the League.

Let's not forget this is set after 4000 AD, right? It isn't about Canada, the Commonwealth system, the US, or even the former Warsaw Pact. The original Manti settlers, like most people outbound from Old Earth, wanted OUT.

Actually, there was never a time in the history of the League when the SOVEREIGN MEMBER SYSTEMS owed anything to the bureaucrats. The League owed its existence to THEM. And there is no awareness on behalf of the local citizen that they ought to pay attention to the League--after all, all the League Members are just like them, right?

I think you missed the part of the story in which the Mandarins sidetracked the Beowulf Assembly reps by not allowing a quorum, by having a paid hack (Reid) introduce a bundle of emotional but irrelevant idiocy to confuse the public, the way the Mandarins ignored the Constitution altogether in assembling the forces to attack Manticore without ever attempting to legally justify it to the public (ie., getting a vote out of the Assembly); or the countless Eridani Edict violations they were willing to ignore in the Protectorates.. . . The point being, the Mandarins' rule is illegal, the Protectorate System is illegal, and the League bureaucracies have forgotten to keep their heads down so the public never becomes aware of what, exactly, they do. Since they have ignored the written Constitution for so long, they --and all the idiots in the SLN--all seem to think their personal authority is endless.

The trouble is, no one has actually held ANY of them, in the ministries or the Navy, accountable for any action they did. For over seven centuries.

As far as Beowulf not passing info about the RMN on to the SLN, first, it is not their job to do ONI's work for them; second, they likely signed non-disclosure agreements along with the military/junction joint defense treaty. So UNLESS THE LEAGUE ISSUES A DECLARATION OF WAR, Beowulf not only has the legal, but the moral responsibility not to pass on anything they know. And the SLN never asked, or they could have been told about it. Centuries ago.

Remember too, that while the Manticoran settlers were en route to Manticore, 600 years of Solarian stupidity happened including the Final War, the creation of the Solarian League (a nation with a lot of representatives without any power to constrain the bureaucrats--NOT a democracy at all), they had already set up OFS and were treating non-Solarian systems like crap. They would have gotten a pretty good rundown on all that from the MCT people waiting for them when they arrived in Manticore. ALL OF THAT has been background to the Solarian relationship with Manticore from the beginning of the Kingdom, five hundred years ago. A little added personal emphasis comes by way of Axelrod's little adventure in Manticore--Axelrod of Terra, that is. The only reason Beowulf held on so long in the League was a combination of wishful thinking, and sheer inertia. Apparently they were attempting to get a constitutional convention together for centuries, in order to correct some of the fundamental structural deficiencies of the League as it was constituted.

Frankly, all the wasted rhetoric in the assembly should have caused an mass exodus even before Detweiler left for Mesa.

YMMV, of course. Regards,

Rob

Well put. I have ... minor issues with a few of your points. But pretty much agree. Well said.

And of course there is the definition of treason. Manticore may be an aggressive competitor possessing an astrophysical comparative advantage that they are also willing to exploit for political advantage. They never set out to destroy, conquer, or wage war against the Solaran League. They never sought or wanted a military confrontation.

Then the MAlign happened and suddenly Manticore is the vile enemy trying to destroy them, a perceptual error. And suddenly ex post facto Beowulf is committing treason. While in reality, and completely undetected, Mannerheim and the otherleague worlds in the MAlign/Renaissance Factor are the true traitors seeking to destroy the League.

I have minor issues remembering my own points. I think of it as having senior blonde moments.

In the text--iirc, Storm from the Shadows--Hamish Alexander made the comment that the definition of treason in the Solarian constitution was vague and unclear. No doubt, written by a committee.

All rivals use any competitive advantages available; most of the League's gripes about Manticore would disappear if Manticore joined the League. But if they had, they wouldn't have been in a position to exert any influence at all on moderating League aggression, as they did in Zunker. They would have been as powerless as Beowulf, or any other Member system.

If it hadn't been for the aggressive expansionism of the People's Republic (essentially modeled on Frontier Security), Manticore would have remained a minor secondary power, in spite of all their financial strengths.

Propaganda in the League had been anti-Manti for a very long time; perhaps partly because of that, their reputation was very good in the Verge. Of course, it was also partly their non-imperialst foreign policy. . . .


Incidentally, aren't all rebels "traitors"?

Regards,

Rob

pappilon wrote:
Well put. I have ... minor issues with a few of your points. But pretty much agree. Well said.

And of course there is the definition of treason. Manticore may be an aggressive competitor possessing an astrophysical comparative advantage that they are also willing to exploit for political advantage. They never set out to destroy, conquer, or wage war against the Solaran League. They never sought or wanted a military confrontation.

Then the MAlign happened and suddenly Manticore is the vile enemy trying to destroy them, a perceptual error. And suddenly ex post facto Beowulf is committing treason. While in reality, and completely undetected, Mannerheim and the otherleague worlds in the MAlign/Renaissance Factor are the true traitors seeking to destroy the League.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:The point being, the Mandarins' rule is illegal, the Protectorate System is illegal, and the League bureaucracies have forgotten to keep their heads down so the public never becomes aware of what, exactly, they do. Since they have ignored the written Constitution for so long, they --and all the idiots in the SLN--all seem to think their personal authority is endless.

The trouble is, no one has actually held ANY of them, in the ministries or the Navy, accountable for any action they did. For over seven centuries.

As far as Beowulf not passing info about the RMN on to the SLN, first, it is not their job to do ONI's work for them; second, they likely signed non-disclosure agreements along with the military/junction joint defense treaty. So UNLESS THE LEAGUE ISSUES A DECLARATION OF WAR, Beowulf not only has the legal, but the moral responsibility not to pass on anything they know. And the SLN never asked, or they could have been told about it. Centuries ago.

Beowulf didn't upgrade their own fleet to Manty standards so the SLN wouldn't get wind of all the tech improvements. I'd that goes beyond any reasonable NDA.

Likewise I'm not saying that the League didn't do stuff in the Protectorates - but that's the whole point. They did stuff in the Protectorates. Beowulf was just a member planet it was the founding member planet besides Earth and yet they had little attachment to the League's institutions and processes at all. It isn't like SLN officers or OFS governors come out of some dark pit of incompetence (not all of them at least) - so some should have been from Beowulf. Even some historic (if not current) Permanent Senior Undersecretaries should have been from Beowulf.

pappilon wrote:And of course there is the definition of treason. Manticore may be an aggressive competitor possessing an astrophysical comparative advantage that they are also willing to exploit for political advantage. They never set out to destroy, conquer, or wage war against the Solaran League. They never sought or wanted a military confrontation.

Then the MAlign happened and suddenly Manticore is the vile enemy trying to destroy them, a perceptual error. And suddenly ex post facto Beowulf is committing treason. While in reality, and completely undetected, Mannerheim and the otherleague worlds in the MAlign/Renaissance Factor are the true traitors seeking to destroy the League.

Obviously the Renaissance Factor are the ones committing actual treason while the Reid/Mandarin treason stuff was pretty much bull.

However that doesn't mean that Beowulf acted in full good faith, or at least tried to act within the system and they didn't do it for at least decades before the League/Manticore war was even on the cards.

For example Beowulf had an entire anti-slavery black ops division in their Survey Corps. Even leaving aside how legal that was why didn't Beowulf think of bribing Kolokoltsov & CO or their predecessors to turn Mesa into an OFS protectorate freeing the slaves in the process? Yes, MAlign would have intervened but that could have tipped Beowulf about its existance sooner - and anyway that isn't really relevant since Beowulf didn't know about MAlign and so could have very well tried bribing and lobbying the League's government into doing what it naturally did.

Instead despite Beowulf having set up the system and having as much influence over it as the government of an extremely wealthy core planet might Beowulf's government decided that creating a parallel black ops organisation is a better way to spend money than getting some Battle Fleet officers to send a couple hundred wallers at Mesa.

That's like setting up a mob with torches rather than attempt to bribe a local politician.

Slneezy wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:The point being, the Mandarins' rule is illegal, the Protectorate System is illegal, and the League bureaucracies have forgotten to keep their heads down so the public never becomes aware of what, exactly, they do. Since they have ignored the written Constitution for so long, they --and all the idiots in the SLN--all seem to think their personal authority is endless.

The trouble is, no one has actually held ANY of them, in the ministries or the Navy, accountable for any action they did. For over seven centuries.

As far as Beowulf not passing info about the RMN on to the SLN, first, it is not their job to do ONI's work for them; second, they likely signed non-disclosure agreements along with the military/junction joint defense treaty. So UNLESS THE LEAGUE ISSUES A DECLARATION OF WAR, Beowulf not only has the legal, but the moral responsibility not to pass on anything they know. And the SLN never asked, or they could have been told about it. Centuries ago.

Beowulf didn't upgrade their own fleet to Manty standards so the SLN wouldn't get wind of all the tech improvements. I'd that goes beyond any reasonable NDA.

Likewise I'm not saying that the League didn't do stuff in the Protectorates - but that's the whole point. They did stuff in the Protectorates. Beowulf was just a member planet it was the founding member planet besides Earth and yet they had little attachment to the League's institutions and processes at all. It isn't like SLN officers or OFS governors come out of some dark pit of incompetence (not all of them at least) - so some should have been from Beowulf. Even some historic (if not current) Permanent Senior Undersecretaries should have been from Beowulf.

pappilon wrote:And of course there is the definition of treason. Manticore may be an aggressive competitor possessing an astrophysical comparative advantage that they are also willing to exploit for political advantage. They never set out to destroy, conquer, or wage war against the Solaran League. They never sought or wanted a military confrontation.

Then the MAlign happened and suddenly Manticore is the vile enemy trying to destroy them, a perceptual error. And suddenly ex post facto Beowulf is committing treason. While in reality, and completely undetected, Mannerheim and the otherleague worlds in the MAlign/Renaissance Factor are the true traitors seeking to destroy the League.

Obviously the Renaissance Factor are the ones committing actual treason while the Reid/Mandarin treason stuff was pretty much bull.

However that doesn't mean that Beowulf acted in full good faith, or at least tried to act within the system and they didn't do it for at least decades before the League/Manticore war was even on the cards.

For example Beowulf had an entire anti-slavery black ops division in their Survey Corps. Even leaving aside how legal that was why didn't Beowulf think of bribing Kolokoltsov & CO or their predecessors to turn Mesa into an OFS protectorate freeing the slaves in the process? Yes, MAlign would have intervened but that could have tipped Beowulf about its existance sooner - and anyway that isn't really relevant since Beowulf didn't know about MAlign and so could have very well tried bribing and lobbying the League's government into doing what it naturally did.

Instead despite Beowulf having set up the system and having as much influence over it as the government of an extremely wealthy core planet might Beowulf's government decided that creating a parallel black ops organisation is a better way to spend money than getting some Battle Fleet officers to send a couple hundred wallers at Mesa.

That's like setting up a mob with torches rather than attempt to bribe a local politician.

Wait?! What?!

So you are suggesting that Beowulf should suddenly reverse it's position on reforming the SL and join the corrupt system of bribing people to get what they want?

It would be like hearing Dalai Lama suddenly suggest that killing people is a good way to solve disagreements.

A couple of points. First, if you are going to say that that Mandarins are acting illegally, you have to be able to specify what law they are violating. At least up until the Eridani violations, that is a mucky subject because the constitution is unworkable. The Mandarins were mostly milking a system that evolved helter skelter over hundreds of years.

Finally, I really don't get the criticism of Beowulf. They are doing something. They have been actively involved in the enforcement of the Cherwell Covention from the start. Why Beowulf should waste its time and energy tilting with the Leagues issues when they couldn't really make a difference rather than focusing on someplace where they could have a positive impact is beyond me. At least they have made a point of sending a quality delegation rather than simply regarding the Leagues assembly as a place for favored sons or party hacks. As far as I can see, the ruling philosophy of the other core worlds was go along to get along.

Don

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Joat42 wrote:Wait?! What?!

So you are suggesting that Beowulf should suddenly reverse it's position on reforming the SL and join the corrupt system of bribing people to get what they want?

It would be like hearing Dalai Lama suddenly suggest that killing people is a good way to solve disagreements.

Is it better to build a new blacks ops division and get in bed with the Ballroom (which as well intentioned as they are still used terrorist tactics) rather than milk the system you've helped develop and get better results by doing so?

Beowulf had several centuries of either using the system for its needs or doing something drastic to reform it. Instead they've enabled it by passively tolerating the bad things but didn't actually use it to do good things.

Wait. back up/ Is someone suggesting OFS send a few Intervention Battallions and a squadron or two of CLs to take over THE Richest world in the universe that is not a member of the Solaran League?

Yeah, I can see that PR nightmare.

Slneezy wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Wait?! What?!

So you are suggesting that Beowulf should suddenly reverse it's position on reforming the SL and join the corrupt system of bribing people to get what they want?

It would be like hearing Dalai Lama suddenly suggest that killing people is a good way to solve disagreements.

Is it better to build a new blacks ops division and get in bed with the Ballroom (which as well intentioned as they are still used terrorist tactics) rather than milk the system you've helped develop and get better results by doing so?

Beowulf had several centuries of either using the system for its needs or doing something drastic to reform it. Instead they've enabled it by passively tolerating the bad things but didn't actually use it to do good things.

From the British perspective, the traitorous rebels who tarred and feathered their tax collectors were also terrorists. And the Nerve! calling themselves the "Sons of Liberty!"

The Ballroom's reputation as terrorists was pushed on people's consciousness by the Malign, quite deliberately. And, no Member World of the League exerted any real influence on the Mandarins--unless they chose to buy one or two. The Constitution gave all of its Members a veto; any time they wanted to reform anything, someone just had to buy a veto. After all, many of them were for sale.

So, when do you start making a strategy for exit? And, whenever it is, someone who views things differently will point fingers and yell "traitor." But I think RFC made it plain enough that the Solarian League people admired had already died a long time ago.

Rob

Slneezy wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Wait?! What?!

So you are suggesting that Beowulf should suddenly reverse it's position on reforming the SL and join the corrupt system of bribing people to get what they want?

It would be like hearing Dalai Lama suddenly suggest that killing people is a good way to solve disagreements.

Is it better to build a new blacks ops division and get in bed with the Ballroom (which as well intentioned as they are still used terrorist tactics) rather than milk the system you've helped develop and get better results by doing so?

Beowulf had several centuries of either using the system for its needs or doing something drastic to reform it. Instead they've enabled it by passively tolerating the bad things but didn't actually use it to do good things.

When you wrestle pigs you expect to get dirty and you can always wash it off but if you on the other hand join the pigs rolling around in the sty you will never be clean again...