SLN Ship improvement

WLBjork wrote:The internal design of an SD(P) is surprisingly tricky. You have to rearrange all the components, add in a massive hold and still maintain structural integrity.

Consider, at BoM 1, what would be the difference in survival time between the fleet of mixed SDs, SD(p) and BC(p) than if the fleet was instead composed of the same mass of just BC(p)s? Then consider how much damage 2nd fleet would have taken from that number of BC(p)s firing MK23s.

Basically home fleet would still have been totally obliterated, but 2nd fleet would have had many fewer surviving ships and pretty much none would have been fully mission capable and the rest would ranged from firepower kills to partially mission capable.

Technically exquisite solutions are all fine when possible and practical, but sometimes the “best” solution is the enemy of the “good enough” solution. Firepower is easier than defense, and you need platforms that can carry weapons ASAP, not after a multi-year design study.

kzt wrote:

WLBjork wrote:The internal design of an SD(P) is surprisingly tricky. You have to rearrange all the components, add in a massive hold and still maintain structural integrity.

Consider, at BoM 1, what would be the difference in survival time between the fleet of mixed SDs, SD(p) and BC(p) than if the fleet was instead composed of the same mass of just BC(p)s? Then consider how much damage 2nd fleet would have taken from that number of BC(p)s firing MK23s.

Basically home fleet would still have been totally obliterated, but 2nd fleet would have had many fewer surviving ships and pretty much none would have been fully mission capable and the rest would ranged from firepower kills to partially mission capable.


Technically exquisite solutions are all fine when possible and practical, but sometimes the “best” solution is the enemy of the “good enough” solution. Firepower is easier than defense, and you need platforms that can carry weapons ASAP, not after a multi-year design study.

So, it comes down to threat assessment v reasonable threat assessment v realistic threat assessment. If any polity of any size bases its realistic threat assessment on having to discourage the GA. NOBODY except the MAlign can hope to do that within the next 30 years, IDC how rich and populous your system or WXYZ Confederacy is. Yes you need to do something nowto get started on your road to independence.

Core worlds have a long history of cooperation and peaceful coexistence notwithstanding the inevitable tensions and conflicts inherent in all human based relationships. They would be more likely to form Rembrandt-style trade unions with a decent regional navy for defense and anti-piracy patrols.
Shell worlds are more vulnerable, being less enamored of the SL on the one hand and exposed to the predations of Sector Governors cum warlords. The need for confederacies here is simultaneously greater and more politically fraught.

The Universe left to its own devices would find the greatest opportunity for conflict in the Verge, home to FF (which has -0-.000-- SDs or SD(p)s) and its Governors with a pre-disposition to empire building. Also the area with least money and population to build huge navies, or even do the basic research into almost any heavy construction.
It is the sector with most contact with the GA. Well half of it. TEXTEV says BF fleeets on the other side of the core from The Haven Sector (RoH-AE) had heard almost nothing of the conflict. So being less inclined to put defense against GA as its probable threat. I'm sure I'm glossing over lots and not going deep enough.

With FF's Plan and the newly minted BF Operation Buccaneer, despite its public face, the opportunity for False Flag operations by the RF/MAlign becomes plausible.

Strategic Arms Limitation Theory PSL (post Solarian League)would almost demand the GA NOT encourage purchase/deveopment of DNs SDs and SD(p)s. Not because they are a difficult concept but for the same reason the US does not want Iran Iraq Botswana, Venezuela, etc to have nuclear weapons. WHY is that a difficult concept?

It is possible to both upgrade existing SLN ships below the wall with more counter-missile and more/better energy weapons. It is also possible to deploy whichever variations of the Cataphracts in pods for the same ships.

The biggest problem is still the communications lag (non FTL/Apollo) and relative lower powered engagement range even with a ballistic component even for the Cataphracts.

While is it POSSIBLE for systems withing the SL to build a new version of LAC which may emulate those of the GA, they don't have either the FTL or Apollo advantage nor do they have the stealth capabilities of the GA LACs (either RMN or ROH) nor the tactical systems fo the GA.
Sure, volume of units is a factor but if your losses are catastrophic in any engagement, and your LACs are not able to get anywhere close to the effectiveness of GA LACs you might be able to beat down one or more GA missle volleys in an engagement but at what cost in numbers of LACs and at some point it will end up a zero sum game as you lose the LAC screen (actual losses or run out of cm) and your starships are still going to be at a range disadvantage.

As far as producing new warships, the SL is under at least the same constraints as the GA in building new class ships. Design, build, (perhaps even test) and then commit them. Does the SL have 5 years as an entity? How many potential fragments of the SL (except the RF systems) will be able to last another 5 years against other factions of fragments?
If it takes 2 or 3 years to build an new hypercapable warship, how much time is nessisary to design one?
Exactly what "improvements" is the SL going to build into any newly designed class? Internal tubes for Flight II Cataphracts? Who and where are Flight I and II Cataphracts being built? It is POSSIBLE that the MA has provided the specs for both to Technodyne and others (particularly the RF systems) but is anybody in the SL acutaly building them now?

It has been mentioned that Harkness thought that the Halo system might be a good one if it was employed (and the software developed to do it) as a FLEET intergrated defence system instead of a ship-by-ship system but someone on the SL side has to 1st think about that and develope what is needed to impliment it. Do they have time?

We are going to see some SLN victories or at least successes against GA ships. There will be innovations on the SL side. My own thoughts are that as the League looses the confidence of a significant number of member systems (particularly as they start beating up independents and threatening members who are preceived as "getting out of line", the fragmentation is going to follow along groups of systems who decide they need to form their own groups. One of the big questions is IF such groups can convince "local" SLN commanders to essentialy defend their smaller areas and not punish the group for wanting to survive. That also means providing the ongoing support for such a "former" SLN force. and giving them a home.

We are back to tearing Western Europe and the Near East apart with the fall of Rome.

Eagleeye wrote:

They are aware of the devils own number of pods Manticore has around Sphinx. There's no textev I can remember, that the SLN knows about pod-designs.

The SLN or it's successor states should send 2 people in a dispatch boat disguised as United Faxes Intergalactic employees. Then they should go to the nearest library if it exists or if not try the SEM equivalent of google. What are the chances that they would be able to find some general descriptions about SD(P)'s? I'm not talking about in detail designs just general information... and there you go. They can get a history of the Havenite wars and get general descriptions of LAC's missile pods etc... again no detailed schematics just general information that would at least give them a starting point. It's not like the existence of any of the RMN's weapons from the first Havenite war are so top secret no-one knows they exist.

BTW, terminal stupidity is the human weakness that has toppled more empires (be it nations, be it economic ones) than anything else. It's powered by the strive to let anything as it is - because the people in question are succssful the way it is. If these people have the necessary influence they are able to put a whole mountain of roadblocks into the way of the ones who want to modernize. Because, if the modernizers win, they lose their power. That they lose, too, if they hinder the modernizers, is irrelevant in their eyes.

But out of 1,700 League members, and unknown number of them being core worlds we can assume some will have competent leadership. Granted the SLN and the Mandarins have shown startling levels of incompetence and arrogance but that doesn't mean that there are incompetent people below them who can find a way to force change and it definitely does not mean that al successor states would have equally arrogant and incompetent leadership.

Weird Harold wrote:
You're assuming that the GA -- or any individual member or associate of the GA -- is going to offer larger, more expensive warships at anything like the same discount as they would offer purely defensive systems.

No I am definitely not making that assumption. The assumption I am making is that as a core world or a group of core worlds I would have much more in the way of resources then say a verge or protectorate system. If the GA is willing to sell me export versions of Havenite ships and below so be it... hell even if the export version of the SD(P) is a BB(P) I won't complain. I won't complain even if the cost is double what it would be. As long as I get ships that let me get some semblance of security while I do my own R&D to catch up I would willingly pay pretty much any amount of money. And If they won't sell me the units I need I will focus on building up my domestic forces ASAP. Build SD(P) lite which basically would be freighters that can store and fire a lot of missiles quickly. Their survivability would be non existent in a real battle but it should be cheap and fast to produce and would give me some firepower while I design and build genuine warships.

Manticore and Grayson won't be offering any warships with current tech, and won't be able to build export versions for several years even if they wanted to enable "force projection" instead of defense.

Which would make the former League systems wonder why the GA wants to be the only one with genuine warships. And this will quickly force them to look for Allies and build up their capabilities.

The Andermani might sell surplus ships, and Haven might sell off old designs as they replace them with "Bolthole Specials" -- neither will have much surplus for several years, though.

Unless Haven has scrapped their SD's and BB's they should be available for sale. The BB's might not be worth much as warships to the GA but to someone who has nothing they would be priceless.

Erewhon is going to be hard-pressed to supply Maya's needs for new ships. They'd have to expand beyond Bolthole levels of shipyards to supply any significant numbers for other customers. The might choose to expand that much but, again, it will take years.

So? My question stands... what choice do successor states have? Anything they try will require time, effort and money so might as well get started, and in the meantime Erewhon ends up tripling their shipyard space and ensuring steady customers for some time.

No, the RF's main defense is their public face that stands for everything that the MAlign doesn't. They're fervent anti-slavery, anti-war, defensive minded, and protectors of the weak. The RF's public face is everything Manticore would look for in an ally against the chaos too come in League space.

Don't you think that Manticore might be a little suspicious if someone comes out of nowhere and seems to perfect. The League's collapse will create a lot of chaos, anyone who recovers too quickly, seems to be a little too prepared or ahead of the game will draw attention. When the GA knows very little about their enemy they will be hyper vigilant about anyone and everyone especially those who seem a bit too friendly.

It's going to be a long time -- decades -- before the RF shows its true colors and converts its "Mutual Protection Alliance" into the "Renaissance Factor Empire."

Yeah and in the mean time there would be dozens if not hundreds of nations who have risen out of the ashes of the League. Something I doubt they would be able to fully control.

WLBjork wrote:
LACs do not have area defence capabilities. Therefore you do not gain any defence capabilities by including them in the first place.

LAC's stop enemy missiles, my missile pods shoot at the enemy and whatever warships I do have in my inventory stay behind the LAC's anti-missile shield. The idea would be to prevent someone from destroying what few warships you might have and your industry while you overwhelm them with as many missiles as you can. You have to make the best choice, it might be the best of bad options but it lets you start from somewhere.

Honorverse Destroyers are closer to pre-WW2 Sloops. 4" DP guns in three twin turrets for fleet defence, backed up by Pompoms, Oerlikons and Bofors for self-defence.

So what? Until you get warships you leave your system open to attack from neighbours, warlord and pirates?

Scientists are *not* a good design. They were designed prior to the invention of the laser head and the PDLC. At least the last generation RMN Dreadnought would have a good chance to win in a one-on-one.

If I negate my enemy's missile advantage if he has one e would have to close with and destroy my units in energy range or withdraw. A Scientist-Class SD is more than a match for any GA warship in energy Range.

SDs are rare. RFC has said that more than a couple of squadrons puts a nation in the top percentage of powerful fleets. Half a dozen squadrons is pie in the sky stuff for most star nations.

That is because those inside the League had the SLN to guard them and they didn't believe they needed to spend money protecting themselves when the invincible SLN was protecting them. At the same time very few nations outside the league had the financial capability to afford SD's. When the League collapses and the technology imbalance is negated say 20 or 30 years down the road many if not most core systems will have SD(P) squadrons in their order of battle.

Like Barnett in Operation Buttercup? Well, leaving aside the fact that the GA is even more capable now than the RMN/GSN were back then.

Notice how I said 50 years from now? I am assuming that the technological balance will be restored in half a century... in 50 years the GA might not even exist as a organization.

They are surprisingly expensive. Millions to build, then you need to pay all 5,000 crew members from the lowest Rating to the Officer Commanding. You also need to feed them - 15,000 meals a day (just breakfast, lunch and dinner). You need to provide the medical supplies and facilities required. Not to mention, you will need to provide the ammunition - which has been stated to cost about as much as the ship itself. By the way, how are you training the crews?

The same way that everyone has created a military for a new nation. You ask for help, get anyone with former military service, try to convince some of the 120+ million former SLN members to move to your nation and join your fleet preferably with their ships... and if all else fails learn by trial and error. If you have no other option then you do the best you can with what you have.

As for multi-system political entities, I'll just remind you that the Silesean Navy had nothing heavier than a Battlecruiser, despite both the Andermani and Manticore considering expansions.

So now Silesia is considered the equivalent of 30 core systems? It's like saying that the UK cannot build a world class navy, army and airforce because the larger nation of Ethiopia with 30+ million more people cannot and has not build a world class navy, army and airforce.

The internal design of an SD(P) is surprisingly tricky. You have to rearrange all the components, add in a massive hold and still maintain structural integrity.

Necessity is the mother of invention... If you need it, you will find a way to build it, research it, steal it or buy it regardless of how long it takes and however much money it costs you.

Sigs wrote:LAC's stop enemy missiles, my missile pods shoot at the enemy and whatever warships I do have in my inventory stay behind the LAC's anti-missile shield. The idea would be to prevent someone from destroying what few warships you might have and your industry while you overwhelm them with as many missiles as you can. You have to make the best choice, it might be the best of bad options but it lets you start from somewhere.
[snip]
If I negate my enemy's missile advantage if he has one e would have to close with and destroy my units in energy range or withdraw. A Scientist-Class SD is more than a match for any GA warship in energy Range.

Hmm, lets run some numbers. A Katana, which carries a loadout of entirely CM sized missiles, shoots itself dry again pod salvos after 3-4 salvos.

Let's grant that your SDF's LACs can last around half as long (given they've got a massive volume eating fusion plant) so say 2 salvos, and that each LAC can stop 1 pod's worth of missiles per salvo. That's being quite generous given their CMs have half the range of the RMN's Mk31s; but let's go with it.

Given that, to negate a single Medusa-class SD(P)'s missile advantage you'd need.
492 pods / 6 pods per salvo = 82 salvos
You need 6 LACs per salvo.
And since they shoot themselves dry after 2 salvos you need 82/2= 41 times that to last as long as the SD(P)
So 246 LACs per SD(P)!

And that's if you use the old SD(P). If you want to defend against an Invictus, even ignoring that it's harder to stop the FTL controlled Apollo missiles it fires, you have to deal with 1074 pods. So given the exact same constraints you need:
537 LACs per SD(P)!

That's a pretty ludicrous number given that SD(P)s usually come in numbers. (And that's pretty much best possible case for your antimissile LACs because it assumes you let them sit there unmolested to trim down the incoming fire)

This may be the best some SDFs can do, short term, but it's almost whistling in the dark...

Umm, you trade off acceleration for payload. So like a shrike can tow two (or is it 300 - it all gets so confusing...) MDM pods while taking significant (or is insignificant - it's hard to tell in the current era "battle" scenes) impact to acceleration and stealth, you have them carry a pod with say 10,000 toms of CMs.

kzt wrote:Umm, you trade off acceleration for payload. So like a shrike can tow two (or is it 300 - it all gets so confusing...) MDM pods while taking significant (or is insignificant - it's hard to tell in the current era "battle" scenes) impact to acceleration and stealth, you have them carry a pod with say 10,000 toms of CMs.

I was thinking of internal CM magazines. I don't think I'd want to rely on pod based defensive missiles for any prolonged combat - not given how vulnerable we're told pods are to proximity kills. (Not to mention a classic LAC is sluggish enough < 410 gees even without a pod or two killing its acceleration)

The thing that I must point out is that the successor states are all going to find themselves in a high risk enviroment in the aftermath of the League's collapse. I can see them really facing difficult choices as to how to deal with the situation.

One choice would be to develop yard space to build their own navy. What makes this choice difficult is not only expense, but the political will to make it happen once the locals realize the cost. Then there is the tech issue. Where you are starting out from is pouring dollars into tech that has already been demonstrated to be inferior. Yes, you can develop your own R&D. But that takes years to develop and translate into construction, years you might not have. So where do you put your dollars?

I agree that obviously you need to start somewhere and you do need the yards and to start developing the tech. But maybe you better not put all of your defense dollars in that basket. It might be wise to talk to someone, say, the GA, to see if help or even an alliance partner might be available to bootstrap your efforts the way Manticore did for Grayson and Marsh.

I would also point out that the Harrington plan as spelled out in MOH anticipates exactly this as securing its own security involves making friends of the successor states by fair economic agreements, cultural and educational exchanges, and yes, defensive treaties.

Much of the world of our own time is not in a position to defend itself from the larger, more powerful nations. Are they at risk of conquest and exploitation? Yep. But they continue to exist in the shelter of the great powers and the hope that they could give any invader such a headache that conquest turns out not to be worth the effort.

Don

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