new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

lyonheart wrote:Hi Uroboros,

NIT: The GA CLAC's aren't really armored because they don't need to be, and aren't intended to go directly in harm's way.

The LACs also are so long that they prevent a proper core hull armor iirc.

I know this goes against the otherwise pro-Scientist leaning of this thread, but why would the RMN place an ex-SLN ship at Montana for Scarecrow duty when it could place one of the retired Gryphon/Sphinx SDs or Gladiator/Belerophon DNs from the reserve in the same role?

The Scientists are definitely 4th tier hardware at best, while DW stated that the TQ systems would not get 2nd class defenses. For training, the RMN ships for the reserve run RMN software, use RMN hardware, and use RMN weapondry - in addition to the fact that when these ships were placed in reserve between 1917 and 1921, they fielded top end technology - oh, and there are well over a hundred of them laying around.

Any serious SLN raider seeing a ex-SL scientist is going to something silimiar to what Tang said about Beowulf's wallers - "we know what they have." Seeing Manty Wallers, the response is going to be "What kind of fresh he!! do they have for us?" (Seeing that the Manty waller at Spindle didn't so much as yawn through the entire engagement, and 427 SLN Wallers WITH PODS just "scratched the paint" on 11 out of 40 RMN wallers at Manticore.)

I can see arguing about giving them to a 3rd party for scarecrow duties, but as pointed out, any serious invasion is going to notice real quick that the ship isn't running at anything near 100% and change tactics to suit - and SDs mean didly against commerce raiders and merchant pirates.

As another poster pointed out over on the bar, a watch crew manned SD runs the risk of being taken over by a foreign polity/pirates via inflitration means. In addition, newly freeded verge polities will run the risk of governmental overthrow as their government traditions emerge - Do you really want to give a Warnake type an SD or 2?

Distributing SDs into the Verge is like pouring gasoline around a bon-fire - Yes, nothing may happen, but if it does, it's going to be massive and violent.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Biochem,

I kind of combined my answer to you with KZT's above, but between the whole GA finding people to man the captured SLN warships ought be much easier than the RMN doing it alone, although given 20 million navy & marine veterans from the first Haven war, it really shouldn't be that hard for the RMN either.

L

biochem wrote:The scarecrow option does seem like a viable use of the SDs for the verge systems. Actually staffing the things up to combat levels is a complete waste of desperately needed manpower. But using the things as scarecrows would only require a skeleton crew and not a very talented one at that. But for the scarecrow option to be effective, the potential opponents (pirate fleets, would be warlords etc) would have to be unaware that the SDs are scarecrows. So that would mean that everyone involved would have to keep the whole operation a secret, which rules out the suggestion of both stripping the things and using them as scarecrows simultaneously.

Given that they have the full fleet databases, they might even be useful against the SL in a deception type of scenario. Change the transponder codes and names to ships not on the capture list, use imaging to fake up an admiral or two... Similar to what Honor and Co did on Hades. Given the level of stupidity exhibited by SL commanders to date, it has a decent chance of working.

It wouldn't be nearly as good as real ships of course, but the real ships are busy elsewhere and they don't have enough real ships to cover the verge.

Preventing an attack on a planet and it's orbital infrastructure is infinitely more critical than protecting shipping.

No system routinely escorts arriving cargo ships to port. They protect their planet, major infrastructure and extraction nodes first and worry about pirates later.

kzt wrote:

The E wrote:Please explain how you can use your one or two SDs to act as effective deterrents. Unless you are requiring every incoming freighter to use one specific spot to translate to N-space, and are consistently escorting them from the hyper limit to the transshipment points (Which does require a bit more than just a skeleton crew), your scarecrows will be completely ineffective. Even if you do this, your operations outside the hyper limit aren't covered in the least; and once pirates realize that you are not running your SDs at combat readiness (something that is really easy to figure out with even cursory surveillance), their defensive value just evaporates.

Who deeply cares about pirates raiding merchant ships away from your planets? It's certainly undesirable, but it's comparable to people spraying graffiti on bridges at night in terms of the level of concern.

And as I've discussed in great detail previously, it's really hard to secure both normal and hyperspace sides of a system against determined threats to shipping. You cant's do it without a squadron or more of hyper capable warships plus something to cover normal space.

Hi Theemile,

I agree with you on this one. I don't think that scattering combat capable SDs around is a good idea either.

Besides, if one is going to "scare crow" it would be more credibly done with heavy cruisers or lighter-- something that would have a chance of running a pirate down.

Don

Theemile wrote:I know this goes against the otherwise pro-Scientist leaning of this thread, but why would the RMN place an ex-SLN ship at Montana for Scarecrow duty when it could place one of the retired Gryphon/Sphinx SDs or Gladiator/Belerophon DNs from the reserve in the same role?

The TQ is apparently adequately covered by LACs. Though exactly how that will work when the reactors need replacing in the not too distant future seems kind of vague....

However for people who you don't want to give modern RMN hardware too (and those are certainly modern) you don't have that option.

kzt wrote:

Theemile wrote:However for people who you don't want to give modern RMN hardware too (and those are certainly modern) you don't have that option.

So don't give them modern RMN hardware, give them "Manticore Light" -- Shrike-A LACs, Capacitor MDM pods for system defense, or anything Erewhon is already selling to Maya.

Or give them "GA Light" technology -- Cimeterre-A LACs, Havenite MDMs, Surplus warships (sans SD(P) designs) being replaced by "Bolthole Specials," etc.

There are going to be a lot of former SLN ships around and any military assistance the GA might provide should probably be capable of defeating SLN tech manned by renegade SLN crews.

The captured SLN ships in Manticore's possession don't fit that requirement; they can't be assured of defeating SLN tech in any hands, let alone defeating renegade SLN crews in former SLN ships.

Manticore/GA is unlikely to provide warships of any size to verge systems with unstable regimes -- although the same can't be said of former SLN suppliers, or other arms merchants like Erewhon or the Anderman Empire.

Weird Harold wrote:So don't give them modern RMN hardware, give them "Manticore Light" -- Shrike-A LACs, Capacitor MDM pods for system defense, or anything Erewhon is already selling to Maya.

Or give them "GA Light" technology -- Cimeterre-A LACs, Havenite MDMs, Surplus warships (sans SD(P) designs) being replaced by "Bolthole Specials," etc.

There are going to be a lot of former SLN ships around and any military assistance the GA might provide should probably be capable of defeating SLN tech manned by renegade SLN crews.

The captured SLN ships in Manticore's possession don't fit that requirement; they can't be assured of defeating SLN tech in any hands, let alone defeating renegade SLN crews in former SLN ships.

Manticore/GA is unlikely to provide warships of any size to verge systems with unstable regimes -- although the same can't be said of former SLN suppliers, or other arms merchants like Erewhon or the Anderman Empire.

You are supplying ships to places without a real Navy. They don't have a large supply of competent trained and experienced commanders.

Consider how Honor of the Queen works if Masada had been given a SD? How would that have worked out for Fearless? Ok, consider how it would have worked if Masada had four DDs and two CLs, all commanded by the same quality of CO as the BC. Do you think there is any question that Fearless would have ground them to dust and taken minimal damage in the process?

It takes much more skill to operate a fleet than to operate separate ships, and there is a LOT more margin for error with really tough ships than with glass cannons.

kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:... any military assistance the GA might provide

You are supplying ships to places without a real Navy. They don't have a large supply of competent trained and experienced commanders.

"Military Assistance" implies more than just arms sales. It implies provision of trainers and support equipment and possibly even cadre personnel.

Manticore has a history of building up navies of treaty partners -- like Grayson, Marsh, Zanzibar, Alizon, et al. I don't see any reason they should change that practice when they start making bilateral mutual defense treaties with successor states and liberated verge worlds.

kzt wrote:You are supplying ships to places without a real Navy. They don't have a large supply of competent trained and experienced commanders.

Consider how Honor of the Queen works if Masada had been given a SD? How would that have worked out for Fearless? Ok, consider how it would have worked if Masada had four DDs and two CLs, all commanded by the same quality of CO as the BC. Do you think there is any question that Fearless would have ground them to dust and taken minimal damage in the process?

It takes much more skill to operate a fleet than to operate separate ships, and there is a LOT more margin for error with really tough ships than with glass cannons.

While your points are all valid, they point back to the previous premise - do you even want to be giving Masada the SD to begin with? It is, obviously, capable of going on a rampage all by itself and running over pretty much anyone else in the verge's home-grown naval force - and oour focus is agression deterrants, not creation.

If I were the one to give them away, I would pretty much have to stipulate that any SD so given has it's hyperdrive removed the moment it hits it's destination system. It would deter said system from going conquistadore and keep it from walking if someone tries to steal it.

Theemile wrote:While your points are all valid, they point back to the previous premise - do you even want to be giving Masada the SD to begin with?

Who ever suggested giving Masada a modern warship? Even The People's Republic wasn't that stupid -- the fact that Masada stole the ship from its real crew was unanticipated.

Manticore has been a bit more discriminating when doling out Military Assistance and with the exception of Erewhon has a spotless record of choosing wisely in how much assistance to provide -- whether materiel, training or personnel