light ships number and type

MAD-4A wrote:A frigates a frigate regardless of the type of drive it has. While DDs have longer sustained combat endurance a scout trying to escape pursuit isn't interested in sustained combat only getting away. An FF with a couple of pods tractored behind it can give a huge (for tin cans anyway) blast to a pursuing DD which could give it the needed time to escape (especially if it "dropped" the pods in its wake and ambushed the DD at point-blank). Anyway, one thing ya'll fail to realize, as DDs and other ships have generally increased in size, so would the FF, a modern GA style FF would be about the size of a BaskSta era fleet DD. So, if you like to look at it that way, then I'm not proposing production of teeny-tiny "FFs" but old size small "DDs" labeled "FFs" as that's their function. Highly specialized hyper capable small recon or point defense platforms.

But that discussion has been made many times before, and David Weber has made his views clear.
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/329/1
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/327/1
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/328/1
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/322/1
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/289/1

MAD-4A wrote: (especially if it "dropped" the pods in its wake and ambushed the DD at point-blank)

At the minor closing velocity you get from short range the pods would have to be at about energy range or less, otherwise even very limited anti-missile systems can methodically obliterate the missiles. And at that range the pods can be detected and directly targeted.

kzt wrote:

MAD-4A wrote: (especially if it "dropped" the pods in its wake and ambushed the DD at point-blank)

At the minor closing velocity you get from short range the pods would have to be at about energy range or less, otherwise even very limited anti-missile systems can methodically obliterate the missiles. And at that range the pods can be detected and directly targeted.

It worked well enough for Adm Henke at Solon.

See opening chapter of SFtS.

namelessfly wrote:
It worked well enough for Adm Henke at Solon.

See opening chapter of SFtS.

So how many pods does a BC(p) have compared to your FF? Or are you planning on a 1.5 mt frigate?

MAD-4A wrote: (especially if it "dropped" the pods in its wake and ambushed the DD at point-blank)

namelessfly wrote:

kzt wrote:At the minor closing velocity you get from short range the pods would have to be at about energy range or less, otherwise even very limited anti-missile systems can methodically obliterate the missiles. And at that range the pods can be detected and directly targeted.

It worked well enough for Adm Henke at Solon.

See opening chapter of SFtS.

I don't normally think of 30+ million klicks, and up to 7 minute flight times, as "point-blank" missile range (not even for MDMs)

Of course pods make a great ambush weapon; we've seen that repeatedly through the series. But fire too and the missiles don't have time to build up enough velocity to be tricky targets for the point defense.

But basically we're nitpicking about what constitutes "point-blank"; or more generally what the optimum engagement range for MDMs is. But there's no question that launching some pods to cover your escape can be a serious distraction if done even half-competently.

Jonathan_S wrote:But basically we're nitpicking about what constitutes "point-blank"; or more generally what the optimum engagement range for MDMs is. But there's no question that launching some pods to cover your escape can be a serious distraction if done even half-competently.

Yes they are - "point blank" is a relative term. Also I wouldn't even use MDMs here - there is no need & a waste of MDM equipment. I'd have pods loaded with more SDMs to saturate the defenses - also he was talking about PD picking them off - but we're talking the PD of a DD or maybe 2 a pod with 20 small "DD" size SDMs could easily saturate its defenses and no it would not be easily spotted as has been the case threw out the series. All it would take is a few hits to possibly disable a DD & discourage direct pursuit while the higher accel of the FF would allow it to easily flee from a DD on anything but a direct pursuit.

This presumes that the pursuer is chasing the ship. It could just as well be a picket ship patrolling the outer perimeter that comes in system to engage the outbound frigate. In which case, the frigate would not be able to drop pods for the pursuer to run over.

Secondly, this has all been covered by RFC in the infodumps. The concept fails to address the multitude of issues (especially the second infodump SWM linked) which RFC highlighted with building frigates. This is all ground that has been trod over before, so the idea is still a non-starter until you can come up with a convincingly different proposal.

MAD-4A wrote:Yes they are - "point blank" is a relative term. Also I wouldn't even use MDMs here - there is no need & a waste of MDM equipment. I'd have pods loaded with more SDMs to saturate the defenses - also he was talking about PD picking them off - but we're talking the PD of a DD or maybe 2 a pod with 20 small "DD" size SDMs could easily saturate its defenses and no it would not be easily spotted as has been the case threw out the series. All it would take is a few hits to possibly disable a DD & discourage direct pursuit while the higher accel of the FF would allow it to easily flee from a DD on anything but a direct pursuit.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Alizon wrote:I also think a traditional DD could probably function as nearly as well as a Roland in other tasks as well. For example a traditional DD with pods towed within it's wedge could also gain the "massive firepower" of a Roland. In fact, if using pods armed with Mk23's, they could actually better it in some ways and at a fraction of the cost.

Sure the extra mass will slow down the traditional DD somewhat but when you consider to Roland's massive 188,000 ton hull, you've got a fairly large acceleration and maneuverability advantage so you can give some of that up and still be better off than a Roland in a number of roles.

Well a DD was classically too small to tractor pods inside its wedge; they had to be towed outside where they significantly reduce acceleration and significantly increase wedge signature (screw up trying to hide a low power wedge)

Now with self-tractoring pods you should be able to limpet them to the hull (at least for as long as the power and tractors last), which would put them inside the wedge and avoid that issue. But that has it's own tradeoffs; tractoring pods to the hull means they're blocking sensors, communications, and/or weapons. You'd need to be careful with how you positioned them to keep the RD linked unblocked - otherwise bringing the pods reduces your scouting effectiveness

That's true however since we are talking the future as well as the past here, one could design the vessels with external pod mounting in mind, repositioning other critical systems so they remain fully functional even with the pods attached. In such a design, even with an existing design, there's really nothing to prevent pods from being physically attached to the hull exterior to save on tractor and power consumption.

You could also design pods specifically for use by lighter combatants reducing size and the load per pod so that more smaller pods could be more easily positioned and mounted.

If you wanted to give your traditional DD's and CL's a long range MDM punch, this is way you could do so without building large CL/small CA sized DD's.

Alizon wrote:You could also design pods specifically for use by lighter combatants reducing size and the load per pod so that more smaller pods could be more easily positioned and mounted.

Sort of like the half-pods on ejector racks the Andermani developed for some of their ships?

Hi Weird Harold,

The IAN quick fixes were attempts to close the pod gap with the RMN.

While interesting in some degree, they didn't have the fire control links to use them in the proper pod fashion.

Discussion or RFC determined these were best used before they were destroyed, essentially the same problem Home Fleet faced at BoMA1 with the same probable result.

In an older pearl RFC mentioned how the earlier 12 MDM pod used one of them as a relay for the rest, permitting up to 12 times as many missiles, besides providing some background for the Apollo Control Missile.

If such is the case, the limited F/C links of a DD could easily handle the 10 pods the old DD's can tractor, and while 120 MDM's can't kill a BF SD outright, 75-80% is quite a headache [granted actual ship-killers might only be 60%].

BTW, the reference for DD's towing 3 pods is probably somewhere between FIE and EoH, but not HAE; ie FIE, IEH, and EoH.

L

Weird Harold wrote:

Alizon wrote:You could also design pods specifically for use by lighter combatants reducing size and the load per pod so that more smaller pods could be more easily positioned and mounted.

Sort of like the half-pods on ejector racks the Andermani developed for some of their ships?