Mesan Alignment post war

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Again, the whole stink of the sins of the father could wash over them. The philosophy is that the "consequences" of one generation passes to the next. And the next.* There must be a conscious attempt to break the cycle. You posit that attempt as fuel for the discussion. But how successful would it be? Will the sins of past generations, if they have not been properly atoned, sprout from dormant seeds? Remember, these people have to fit into a completely new society quite different than their own.

I do not believe that the "sins of the father" has much hold between nations.

Post WWII the Western Allies partnered with Germany and Japan (after both societies took steps to divorce their militaristic past) against the USSR and China, who had previously been part of the Allies. Governmental leaders are much more concerned with what is happening now or is expected to happen in the near future, than what happened in the distant past or might happen in the distant future. This view is short sighted, but usually there is enough present trouble to keep everyone fully occupied.

I believe that is what Sigs is positing, that enough time has passed that even a society with prolong has moved on. So if this newly encountered civilization seems peaceful, then the encounter should prove peaceful.

tlb wrote:As for whether this hypothetical outpost of the Malign would choose to live in peace because to do otherwise would "take significant resources and manpower and would carry inherent risk of defeat"; you must have a more idealistic view of human nature than I have. It seems to me that people have gone into every war with the recognition that it would "take significant resources and manpower and would carry inherent risk of defeat".

cthia wrote:The whole philosophy of "The sins of the father" comes to mind.

Upon reappearing after so long, the GA may have to be able to definitively prove - not just to themselves but to the galaxy - that they are the perpetrator of past crimes.

tlb wrote:As for whether this hypothetical outpost of the Malign would choose to live in peace because to do otherwise would "take significant resources and manpower and would carry inherent risk of defeat"; you must have a more idealistic view of human nature than I have. It seems to me that people have gone into every war with the recognition that it would "take significant resources and manpower and would carry inherent risk of defeat".

Sigs wrote:There is a big difference between invading human occupied space and conquering thousands of systems and what they had originally planned which was to destroy the SL, blunt the Republic and the RF becomes one of if not the biggest nation in Human explored galaxy, an island of safety, strength and stability.

If there is MA nation far removed from humanity, they will be a little more hesitant if they face 4,000-5,000 SD(P)'s from the SLN, 4,000-5,000 SD(P)'s from the GA and 5,000 SD(P)'s from the rest galaxy along with 4,5 or 10 trillion people. They will be operating under the constraints of a nation not a rogue organization.

The MA would have to look at their situation and try to figure out how they can defeat and conquer humanity and at some point it becomes too much even for the galactic superman.

tlb wrote:Anyway the RF was intended to conquer all inhabited space in the end; only that way could they implement their eugenics program that was expected to kill so many people.

tlb wrote:Anyway the RF was intended to conquer all inhabited space in the end; only that way could they implement their eugenics program that was expected to kill so many people.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The dialogue with the movie directors, erm, I mean, RF leadership, did not make clear how the RF was supposed to expand. But I didn't get the feeling it was via conquest.

It seems to me they'd play a carrot-and-stick solution: the RF is the carrot and the MAN the stick, with the Leonard Detweilers.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The dialogue with the movie directors, erm, I mean, RF leadership, did not make clear how the RF was supposed to expand. But I didn't get the feeling it was via conquest.

It seems to me they'd play a carrot-and-stick solution: the RF is the carrot and the MAN the stick, with the Leonard Detweilers.

Sigs wrote:

cthia wrote:The whole philosophy of "The sins of the father" comes to mind.

Upon reappearing after so long, the GA may have to be able to definitively prove - not just to themselves but to the galaxy - that they are the perpetrator of past crimes.

The people who suffered because of the attacks are long dead, and the people who authorised and launched those attacks are also long dead. What if they showed up 1,200 years later, 4 or 5 generations down the line would the MA be absolved of the crimes their great-great-great-great grand parents committed against the great-great-great-great grand parents of another nation.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The dialogue with the movie directors, erm, I mean, RF leadership, did not make clear how the RF was supposed to expand. But I didn't get the feeling it was via conquest.

It seems to me they'd play a carrot-and-stick solution: the RF is the carrot and the MAN the stick, with the Leonard Detweilers.

tlb wrote:Perhaps, but there clearly would be coercion once they started implementing the genetic control board. Also they wanted to do that for all populations and I do not see how it would work without military force.

kzt wrote:Nah. The will use the RMN. Plant some evidence and have them charge in like a bull in a china shop, making friends everywhere.

tlb wrote:Anyway the RF was intended to conquer all inhabited space in the end; only that way could they implement their eugenics program that was expected to kill so many people.

cthia wrote:And remember, no more clones! If they want to live in peace.

"For that matter, there's another possibility entirely," Prestwick pointed out. Both of the others looked at him, and he shrugged. "I'm quite certain Lady Harrington's mother has samples of the Steadholder's genetic material, which means it would almost certainly be possible to produce a child of Lady Harrington's even at this date. Or even a direct clone, for that matter!"
"I think we'd better not start getting into those orbits," Benjamin cautioned. "Certainly not without consulting Reverend Sullivan and the Sacristy first, at any rate!" He shuddered at the mere thought of how the more conservative of his subjects might react to the Chancellor's musings. "Besides, a clone would probably only make matters worse. If I remember correctly—and I'm not certain I do, without looking it up—the Star Kingdom's legal code adheres to the Beowulf Life Sciences Code, just as the Solarian League's does."
"Which means?" Clinkscales asked, clearly intrigued by the notion.
"Which means, first of all, that it's completely illegal to use a dead individual's genetic material unless that individual's will or other legal declaration specifically authorized the use. And secondly, it means that a clone is a child of its donor parent or parents, with all the legal protections of any other sentient being, but it is not the same person, and posthumous cloning cannot be used to circumvent the normal laws of inheritance."
"You mean that if Lady Harrington had had herself cloned before her death, then her clone would legally have been her child and could have inherited her title, but that if we have her cloned now, the child couldn't inherit?" Prestwick said, and Benjamin nodded.
"That's exactly what I mean, although it's also possible—and legal—for someone to stipulate in his will that he be cloned following his death and that his posthumous clone inherit. But no one can make that decision for him, which would be essentially what we would be doing if we decided to clone Lady Harrington at this point to solve our difficulties. And if you think about it, there's some sound reasoning behind the prohibition. For example, suppose some unscrupulous relative managed to arrange the death of someone like Klaus Hauptman or Lady Harrington without getting caught. And then that same relative had his victim cloned and himself appointed as the clone child's guardian, thus controlling the Hauptman Cartel—or Harrington Steading—until the clone attained his majority and inherited? And that doesn't even consider the sticky question of when a will would properly be probated! I mean, if a second party could legally produce a posthumous duplicate of the person who wrote the will, would that duplicate's existence supersede the will? Would the clone be entitled to sue those to whom 'his' estate had already legally been distributed—in exact accordance with his 'own' legally written and witnessed directions—for recovery of assets? The ramifications could go on and on forever."