New Manty ship ideas.

Rakhmamort wrote:With all the LACs buffing the CM coverage discussion, has there been a proposal for 'donkeyed CM pods towed by LACs'???




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I'm in the mood of mixing up Manticoran tech with Haven's 'solutions' to keep combat power parity with less advanced tech.

Remember, a donkey is a Pod sized platform with tractor emittors on it. LACS can only tow 3 pods for 2/3rd accel loss and 100% stealth loss. Adding a donkey to the mix will give a LAC 2 pods - and a donkey. They just don't have the impeller power to tow any more.

So a Donkey / LAC mix = fewer Pods - not more.

Donkeys only really give you an advantage when you have a large ship with plenty of impeller power to spare, and huge compensated volumes. Doneys probably do not give any advantages until your ship is BC in size. Remember, the only ships we've seen using Donkey's so far are SDs.

Theemile wrote:Donkeys only really give you an advantage when you have a large ship with plenty of impeller power to spare, and huge compensated volumes. Doneys probably do not give any advantages until your ship is BC in size. Remember, the only ships we've seen using Donkey's so far are SDs.

Not to mention that Donkeys need power beamed to them from the base ship, something that I think LACs aren't capable of doing given how tight their energy budgets are.

Theemile wrote:

Rakhmamort wrote:With all the LACs buffing the CM coverage discussion, has there been a proposal for 'donkeyed CM pods towed by LACs'???




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I'm in the mood of mixing up Manticoran tech with Haven's 'solutions' to keep combat power parity with less advanced tech.

Remember, a donkey is a Pod sized platform with tractor emittors on it. LACS can only tow 3 pods for 2/3rd accel loss and 100% stealth loss. Adding a donkey to the mix will give a LAC 2 pods - and a donkey. They just don't have the impeller power to tow any more.

So a Donkey / LAC mix = fewer Pods - not more.

Donkeys only really give you an advantage when you have a large ship with plenty of impeller power to spare, and huge compensated volumes. Doneys probably do not give any advantages until your ship is BC in size. Remember, the only ships we've seen using Donkey's so far are SDs.

Those numbers are for MDM pods. I did say CM pods. CMs are smaller so their pods would be smaller.

Since we also don't want to reduce a LACs acceleration much, it's probably better if we reduce the number of pods a CM 'donkey pod' can tractor thus limiting its size.

I'm not suggesting making LACs tow dozens of CM pods, maybe just enough to double it's CM supply. For Shrikes, that's around 6 pods of 10-12 CMs per pod (I really don't know how many CMs a LAC can control per salvo but I'm sure a Shrike can handle around that much.)

Those 6 pods are going to be the first ones to be used during the start of the missile exchange where you usually have the largest number of missiles as forces flush out as many missiles from their towed pods before proximity hits make them useless. In addition to reserving the LACs internal CMs for later use, it will also free up more accel for maneuvering which will be needed when LACs adjust their positions.


I'm also sure that it is a minor tweak to make those pod based CMs controllable from proper warships which means LACs dragging CM pods can be 'free' of them fairly early in the missile exchange phase and would be free to maneuver as they want and use CMs from internal magazines.


An additional advantage in using CM pods would be faster turn-around time for LACs doing anti-missile roles. I don't know how long it takes for a LAC to dock into its mothership while the mothership is maneuvering, reload its CM magazines then undock from the mothership. If the battle is going in a way that such rearming is necessary, a 'donkey' totting LAC can simply fall back to its mothership/CM pod supplier and 'catch' CM pods with its tractors and go back to flinging CMs at incoming missile salvos. No need to dock.


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Note. The CM pods are not for LACs doing attack runs on enemy ships, they are for LACs in the anti-missile defense role. That means acceleration-wise, it's not that big a problem. Stealth-wise, might make LACs more vulnerable to hits IF the enemy is targeting LACs deliberately.

The E wrote:Not to mention that Donkeys need power beamed to them from the base ship, something that I think LACs aren't capable of doing given how tight their energy budgets are.

Haven donkey pods. They don't have the Manties mini-fusion plants.

Shannon and Sonia are going to cook up a lot of things. I'm quite sure that if Sonia learns of the donkey pod, she can suggest improvements on it using Manty tech.

I know I'm going to take hits for this suggestion but, what the hell.

Put a drive on the CM pod. When the pod's drive dies, that's when the pod will 'release' its CMs. Increases the CM envelope quite a bit. I know accuracy is gonna be 'shitty' but that's usually the cost for longer ranges.

An additional thought. That CM pod can act like an Apollo control missile. Sends 'final' instructions to its payload before it burns out.

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Start the smack down

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Note: The pod's drive does not need to accelerate the whole pod with attack bird or even CM acceleration rates. It's main purpose is to put its payload's launching point a lot closer to the enemy thus increasing the CM envelope.

Rakhmamort wrote:

Theemile wrote:Remember, a donkey is a Pod sized platform with tractor emittors on it. LACS can only tow 3 pods for 2/3rd accel loss and 100% stealth loss. Adding a donkey to the mix will give a LAC 2 pods - and a donkey. They just don't have the impeller power to tow any more.

So a Donkey / LAC mix = fewer Pods - not more.

Donkeys only really give you an advantage when you have a large ship with plenty of impeller power to spare, and huge compensated volumes. Doneys probably do not give any advantages until your ship is BC in size. Remember, the only ships we've seen using Donkey's so far are SDs.

Those numbers are for MDM pods. I did say CM pods. CMs are smaller so their pods would be smaller.

Since we also don't want to reduce a LACs acceleration much, it's probably better if we reduce the number of pods a CM 'donkey pod' can tractor thus limiting its size.

I'm not suggesting making LACs tow dozens of CM pods, maybe just enough to double it's CM supply. For Shrikes, that's around 6 pods of 10-12 CMs per pod (I really don't know how many CMs a LAC can control per salvo but I'm sure a Shrike can handle around that much.)

Those 6 pods are going to be the first ones to be used during the start of the missile exchange where you usually have the largest number of missiles as forces flush out as many missiles from their towed pods before proximity hits make them useless. In addition to reserving the LACs internal CMs for later use, it will also free up more accel for maneuvering which will be needed when LACs adjust their positions.


I'm also sure that it is a minor tweak to make those pod based CMs controllable from proper warships which means LACs dragging CM pods can be 'free' of them fairly early in the missile exchange phase and would be free to maneuver as they want and use CMs from internal magazines.


An additional advantage in using CM pods would be faster turn-around time for LACs doing anti-missile roles. I don't know how long it takes for a LAC to dock into its mothership while the mothership is maneuvering, reload its CM magazines then undock from the mothership. If the battle is going in a way that such rearming is necessary, a 'donkey' totting LAC can simply fall back to its mothership/CM pod supplier and 'catch' CM pods with its tractors and go back to flinging CMs at incoming missile salvos. No need to dock.


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Note. The CM pods are not for LACs doing attack runs on enemy ships, they are for LACs in the anti-missile defense role. That means acceleration-wise, it's not that big a problem. Stealth-wise, might make LACs more vulnerable to hits IF the enemy is targeting LACs deliberately.

Well, Rachamort, there is no official "CM pod" in the Honorverse - no side has ever employed or discussed one - only Barflies. The original stats for LACs pod carriage were not for MDM pods but for normal Capitol Single drive pods which existed at that time LACs were introduced, not the MDM pods which appeared in the next book. Since the beginning every pod in books has been handled as a pod (generic)- never have masses or variances in towing capabilities been mentioned by David in text or on the bar until the advent of the flatpack - and all flatpacks have since been handled the same since

Remember, almost all pods in Manty use - except 4 drive system defense pods - are considered to be universal, and the last are just too big to be so. So unless there is a major thought change, any Pod will conform to the size necessary to fill a podnaught's pod launch queue. So any CM pod most likely will have just more launchers if one is ever made, just as the MK16 pod has 14 launchers.

David has been approached on several occasions I know of about using a smaller LAC only pod (for shipkillers), and the "univeral use" argument has always come up in response. (That and Any pod, no matter how small, compromises a LAC's acceleration and Stealth too much.)

Also David will never use pod drives in the Honorverse - he has been very emphatic about that.

Mr Weber has talking shot down powered pods:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/176/1

Just out of curiosity, have you read through the Pearls?

Rakhmamort wrote:I know I'm going to take hits for this suggestion but, what the hell.

Put a drive on the CM pod. When the pod's drive dies, that's when the pod will 'release' its CMs. Increases the CM envelope quite a bit. I know accuracy is gonna be 'shitty' but that's usually the cost for longer ranges.

An additional thought. That CM pod can act like an Apollo control missile. Sends 'final' instructions to its payload before it burns out.

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Start the smack down

---
Note: The pod's drive does not need to accelerate the whole pod with attack bird or even CM acceleration rates. It's main purpose is to put its payload's launching point a lot closer to the enemy thus increasing the CM envelope.

Rakhmamort wrote:

The E wrote:Not to mention that Donkeys need power beamed to them from the base ship, something that I think LACs aren't capable of doing given how tight their energy budgets are.

Haven donkey pods. They don't have the Manties mini-fusion plants.

Shannon and Sonia are going to cook up a lot of things. I'm quite sure that if Sonia learns of the donkey pod, she can suggest improvements on it using Manty tech.

Current Havenite Donkey pods are powered by their mothership through beamed power as "The E" mentioned. You would require a rebuild with a Manty micro-fusion reactor for them to be self powered.

Rakhmamort wrote:Those numbers are for MDM pods. I did say CM pods. CMs are smaller so their pods would be smaller.

To keep pod logistics simplified, I think any CM pod would have the same external contours as the other pods(IIRC, MK16 pods were the same size as MK23 pods and they accommodated the Apollo control missile by deleting two missiles to retain the pod shape). This means there could be quite a lot of CMs available.

Towed CM pods might have had some merit in the days immediately before pod-layers, when significantly heavier first strikes followed up by lighter shipboard salvos were the norm. However, I don't think it's sustainable in pod-laying combat when repeat salvos are just as large as the first and potentially right on its heels.

Hmm, a hull that carried by a big ship, that is self powered so as it can get down range in a wall v wall enviroment, carries counter missiles and can act as a down rane C&C for them.

My god you've invented the LAC.


Slightly more seriously, almost the exact role for the proposed CM pod is done by a LAC anyway.