SLN Ship improvement

Sigs wrote:In the end you end up with mostly similar problems. You are not a first class fleet, you have no reach beyond your system and you really don't have much in the way to stop a serious aggressor. You don't control the production of the LAC's, and you have no R&D of your own because you have no shipyards to introduce any new technologies in your fleet.

You are the one proposing LAC based missile defenses to support the SDs you haven't built, yet. Buying "GA Lite" or "GA Surplus" gets you some defense faster than you could design and build even inferior, obsolete Solarian Designs.

There is nothing except politics to keep you from having a robust R&D program and building shipyards of whatever size you think necessary. Manticore might even provide some help (technical and/or financial) in exchange for repair and basing support; as they did for Alizon, Zanzibar, Marsh, and Grayson.

RFC has said that Manticore is very aware that they need to be very careful about letting tech secrets get out, but textev shows that they are pretty open-handed to treaty partners they trust.

I doubt that the GA is going to force anyone to take military assistance or force them to use "GA Lite" defenses under GA control. I'm not sure the same can be said about the RF, which is also going to be providing "protection" and "military assistance" (with many hooks included.)

Your notional ABC system can go it alone, or get military assistance from some other source -- as long as they stay neutral with regard to the GA, the GA will leave them alone.

The RF has no intention of leaving anyone alone in the long term. Other local warlords or orphaned SLN units or pirates probably won't leave them alone either. You can build your own defenses, buy off-the-shelf defense systems from somebody, hire mercenaries, or make some sort of treaty with someone who is willing and able to defend you.

Or of course, you can be conquered.

It's all up to your politicians and system budget.

munroburton wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:My claim is not that they had a fully built shipyard out there and did nothing with it (except maybe stockpiling components).

My claim is it took most of the first war to build that shipyard facility, so fairly few (if any) ships from there got added to their order of battle before Buttercup. But if they hadn't spent those years building it up they wouldn't have had the infrastructure to build their secret SD(P)s and CLACs during the ceasefire.

I would tend to agree with this. I'm pretty sure Bolthole started producing some limited quantities, but only late into the First War. Remember when StateSec seemed to start operating superdreadnoughts in 1914-1915? It shocked Tourville, even thought he'd spent time in close proximity to a StateSec battlecruiser.

Well, I think these ships were Bolthole's first crop. Only thirty or fifty SDs had been finished by the time Operation Buttercup launched and those had been scattered around in penny packets to keep an eye on the real People's Navy.

I didn't think about those... but if no-one knew where they came from that might be a really valid theory.

OR: SEM or RoH or AE cut their own deals with individual worlds or multiworld confederacies; civilian trade, defense contracts whatever, a veritable menu of options. You want to set up your own yards and build your own stuff, we can design and help. You want export grade Rolands or Moriarty? We can do that too. You want to trade with us but buy your military hardware from TIY, We don't have problems with that. We're here to make a deal.

I think I would not be selling SD(p)s to anyone, maybe not even BCs as they are way more used as force projection than for system defense. Not even sure as the Sl falls apart, those FF & BF ships will be evenly spread through the core and shell. I would expect many admirals to head for the Verge and set themselves up as modern Gustav Andermans, maybe pick a shell system or two as a base and expand out. Especially the FF admirals. Maybe the sector governor cuts them in for cuts of the profit and pulls a Barregos.

Weird Harold wrote:
You are the one proposing LAC based missile defenses to support the SDs you haven't built, yet. Buying "GA Lite" or "GA Surplus" gets you some defense faster than you could design and build even inferior, obsolete Solarian Designs.

There is nothing except politics to keep you from having a robust R&D program and building shipyards of whatever size you think necessary. Manticore might even provide some help (technical and/or financial) in exchange for repair and basing support; as they did for Alizon, Zanzibar, Marsh, and Grayson.

RFC has said that Manticore is very aware that they need to be very careful about letting tech secrets get out, but textev shows that they are pretty open-handed to treaty partners they trust.

I doubt that the GA is going to force anyone to take military assistance or force them to use "GA Lite" defenses under GA control. I'm not sure the same can be said about the RF, which is also going to be providing "protection" and "military assistance" (with many hooks included.)

Your notional ABC system can go it alone, or get military assistance from some other source -- as long as they stay neutral with regard to the GA, the GA will leave them alone.

The RF has no intention of leaving anyone alone in the long term. Other local warlords or orphaned SLN units or pirates probably won't leave them alone either. You can build your own defenses, buy off-the-shelf defense systems from somebody, hire mercenaries, or make some sort of treaty with someone who is willing and able to defend you.

Or of course, you can be conquered.

It's all up to your politicians and system budget.

And at the end of the day, if you are buying Alliance hardware right off the bat and going it alone the rest of my position stands. But if you have access to GA technology even if it is only export versions I would go for the more powerful ships rather than LAC's. Building large quantities of LAC's as a backbone of your defence is because they are easy to build in large quantities, relatively cheap and fast to produce. But if you have access to real warships even if they export version then it would be imperative to go down that route. As long as it doesn't come with any strings that prevent you from building your own shipbuilding industry or R&D it would be good.


As for the RF, they have to be ver careful how they proceed. Their main defence is that no-one know about them and no one knew about the MA but the second is no longer true. And if/when the League starts collapsing the RF would have to approach the situation with caution because the GA would be hyper vigilant about any post League nations and anything that seems suspicious would draw the attention of the GA. More than that we don't know if the GA captures Darius or not, if Darius is captured along with it's yards and the majority of the inner onion are either captured or killed I doubt that RF would continue with the plan, they might just go for building 12 independent little empires.

pappilon wrote:OR: SEM or RoH or AE cut their own deals with individual worlds or multiworld confederacies; civilian trade, defense contracts whatever, a veritable menu of options. You want to set up your own yards and build your own stuff, we can design and help. You want export grade Rolands or Moriarty? We can do that too. You want to trade with us but buy your military hardware from TIY, We don't have problems with that. We're here to make a deal.

I think I would not be selling SD(p)s to anyone, maybe not even BCs as they are way more used as force projection than for system defense. Not even sure as the Sl falls apart, those FF & BF ships will be evenly spread through the core and shell. I would expect many admirals to head for the Verge and set themselves up as modern Gustav Andermans, maybe pick a shell system or two as a base and expand out. Especially the FF admirals. Maybe the sector governor cuts them in for cuts of the profit and pulls a Barregos.

What is so special about SD(P)'s? The concept is not so hard to grasp, it's not like anyone else will have much of a problem duplicating the design once they become aware of class and it's advantages. SD(P)'s along with all the other tech that allows them to be such a lethal force is a different question. I don't see how it would be difficult for any successor state that already has the yards to build an SD(P)... it will not be effective as an alliance one but it would be an SD(P).

Sigs wrote:
What is so special about SD(P)'s? The concept is not so hard to grasp, it's not like anyone else will have much of a problem duplicating the design once they become aware of class and it's advantages. SD(P)'s along with all the other tech that allows them to be such a lethal force is a different question. I don't see how it would be difficult for any successor state that already has the yards to build an SD(P)... it will not be effective as an alliance one but it would be an SD(P).

You remember how hard Honor had to fight to convince Hamish about the usefulness of such "newfangled toys made directly from the opium dreams of the horrible Hemphill"? You think Hamish is the only one in the whole galaxy who's suffering occasionally in the "Not here invented"-syndrome?

No, pod-designs are not difficult to duplicate; the art is to become aware of them (and to overcome the mental roadblocks on your way to build them). But don't forget, that, aside from the GA, the Andermanis, Erewhon (incl. the "Smoking Frog"-sector) and the MAlign, noone else knows about them (as far as we know). Certainly not the SLN. If observers of other SDFs knows about pod-designs and what they do with that knowledge, only His Celeryness can say for sure.

Eagleeye wrote:
You remember how hard Honor had to fight to convince Hamish about the usefulness of such "newfangled toys made directly from the opium dreams of the horrible Hemphill"? You think Hamish is the only one in the whole galaxy who's suffering occasionally in the "Not here invented"-syndrome?

No, pod-designs are not difficult to duplicate; the art is to become aware of them (and to overcome the mental roadblocks on your way to build them). But don't forget, that, aside from the GA, the Andermanis, Erewhon (incl. the "Smoking Frog"-sector) and the MAlign, noone else knows about them (as far as we know). Certainly not the SLN. If observers of other SDFs knows about pod-designs and what they do with that knowledge, only His Celeryness can say for sure.

I'm pretty sure the SLN is aware of them... at least after the Second Battle of Manticore. And if they are not they will be soon.


It's one thing for someone to be opposed to an untried thing, it's one thing for someone to be opposed based on incompetence and it is a whole other kettle of fish for people to oppose an idea when it is conclusively shown to work.

Sigs wrote:

Eagleeye wrote:
You remember how hard Honor had to fight to convince Hamish about the usefulness of such "newfangled toys made directly from the opium dreams of the horrible Hemphill"? You think Hamish is the only one in the whole galaxy who's suffering occasionally in the "Not here invented"-syndrome?

No, pod-designs are not difficult to duplicate; the art is to become aware of them (and to overcome the mental roadblocks on your way to build them). But don't forget, that, aside from the GA, the Andermanis, Erewhon (incl. the "Smoking Frog"-sector) and the MAlign, noone else knows about them (as far as we know). Certainly not the SLN. If observers of other SDFs knows about pod-designs and what they do with that knowledge, only His Celeryness can say for sure.

I'm pretty sure the SLN is aware of them... at least after the Second Battle of Manticore. And if they are not they will be soon.


It's one thing for someone to be opposed to an untried thing, it's one thing for someone to be opposed based on incompetence and it is a whole other kettle of fish for people to oppose an idea when it is conclusively shown to work.

They are aware of the devils own number of pods Manticore has around Sphinx. There's no textev I can remember, that the SLN knows about pod-designs.

BTW, terminal stupidity is the human weakness that has toppled more empires (be it nations, be it economic ones) than anything else. It's powered by the strive to let anything as it is - because the people in question are succssful the way it is. If these people have the necessary influence they are able to put a whole mountain of roadblocks into the way of the ones who want to modernize. Because, if the modernizers win, they lose their power. That they lose, too, if they hinder the modernizers, is irrelevant in their eyes.

There's a saying in german - Whoever does not go with the times goes with the times (translated by google; sorry about that. Don't know an english one that covers the same content) - that covers quite nicely the situation the SLN is at the moment.

Sigs wrote:And at the end of the day, if you are buying Alliance hardware right off the bat and going it alone the rest of my position stands. But if you have access to GA technology even if it is only export versions I would go for the more powerful ships rather than LAC's. Building large quantities of LAC's as a backbone of your defence is because they are easy to build in large quantities, relatively cheap and fast to produce. But if you have access to real warships even if they export version then it would be imperative to go down that route. As long as it doesn't come with any strings that prevent you from building your own shipbuilding industry or R&D it would be good.

You're assuming that the GA -- or any individual member or associate of the GA -- is going to offer larger, more expensive warships at anything like the same discount as they would offer purely defensive systems.

Manticore and Grayson won't be offering any warships with current tech, and won't be able to build export versions for several years even if they wanted to enable "force projection" instead of defense.

The Andermani might sell surplus ships, and Haven might sell off old designs as they replace them with "Bolthole Specials" -- neither will have much surplus for several years, though.

Erewhon is going to be hard-pressed to supply Maya's needs for new ships. They'd have to expand beyond Bolthole levels of shipyards to supply any significant numbers for other customers. The might choose to expand that much but, again, it will take years.

TIY and other SLN suppliers have the yards and possible the capacity to sell significant numbers of SLN-tech warships but it will take them a few years of R&D (and/or espionage) to design and build anything truly superior to SLN-tech.

Getting superior hyper-capable warships is going to take a very good negotiator to talk the GA out of something, or a lot of time for in-house R&D and design. In the meantime, you're going to need missiles and LACs to defend the home system.

Sigs wrote:As for the RF, they have to be ver careful how they proceed. Their main defence is that no-one know about them ...

No, the RF's main defense is their public face that stands for everything that the MAlign doesn't. They're fervent anti-slavery, anti-war, defensive minded, and protectors of the weak. The RF's public face is everything Manticore would look for in an ally against the chaos too come in League space.

It's going to be a long time -- decades -- before the RF shows its true colors and converts its "Mutual Protection Alliance" into the "Renaissance Factor Empire."

Sigs wrote:1)LAC's are cheaper to produce.

2)More importantly, in a battle if you lose 1 Destroyer you lose all of it's defensive weapons while if you lose a LAC you only lose a fraction of the defensive capabilities of a DD.

3)One does not exclude the other.

LACs do not have area defence capabilities. Therefore you do not gain any defence capabilities by including them in the first place.

LACs are equivalent to MTBs and MGBs of WW2. Couple of machine guns or light auto-cannon for self-defence against air attack, but no fleet defence capability.

Honorverse Destroyers are closer to pre-WW2 Sloops. 4" DP guns in three twin turrets for fleet defence, backed up by Pompoms, Oerlikons and Bofors for self-defence.

The Scientist Class are a good design, they are just outclassed by the technology introduced in the war between Haven and Manticore. For you to design a better ship you have to research the technologies that would allow you to build better ships. If you wait until you have a viable SD(P) design to start building up your shipyards then you extend the position of weakness unnecessarily.

Scientists are *not* a good design. They were designed prior to the invention of the laser head and the PDLC. At least the last generation RMN Dreadnought would have a good chance to win in a one-on-one.

You just need enough core worlds to build SD's and their neighbours will follow suite. If I build 5 or 6 Squadrons of SD's or SD(P)'s once I get the capability do you think my neighbours will be satisfied with a few squadrons of BC's? If all the core worlds can be convinced not to build ships of the Wall then there MIGHT be a point to this but then they would also look at the Haven Sector and see a thousand or more SD(P)'s there and start building up their own fleet. Not out of desire to fight them but more out of the desire to present something of a deterrent.

SDs are rare. RFC has said that more than a couple of squadrons puts a nation in the top percentage of powerful fleets. Half a dozen squadrons is pie in the sky stuff for most star nations.

My nation might not be able to match the GA in SD(P)'s 50 years from now but I would present a tough enough target to make them think twice.

Like Barnett in Operation Buttercup? Well, leaving aside the fact that the GA is even more capable now than the RMN/GSN were back then.

Besides the cost of the SD(P)'s is great but it is not prohibitive. Beowulf has at least 36 SD's in commissions, if they can have those SD's without breaking their economy and while they also had the SLN's protection why can't another since system nation build 20 or so? And why can't a multi-system navy build even more?

They are surprisingly expensive. Millions to build, then you need to pay all 5,000 crew members from the lowest Rating to the Officer Commanding. You also need to feed them - 15,000 meals a day (just breakfast, lunch and dinner). You need to provide the medical supplies and facilities required. Not to mention, you will need to provide the ammunition - which has been stated to cost about as much as the ship itself. By the way, how are you training the crews?

As for multi-system political entities, I'll just remind you that the Silesean Navy had nothing heavier than a Battlecruiser, despite both the Andermani and Manticore considering expansions.

What is so special about SD(P)'s? The concept is not so hard to grasp, it's not like anyone else will have much of a problem duplicating the design once they become aware of class and it's advantages. SD(P)'s along with all the other tech that allows them to be such a lethal force is a different question. I don't see how it would be difficult for any successor state that already has the yards to build an SD(P)... it will not be effective as an alliance one but it would be an SD(P).

The internal design of an SD(P) is surprisingly tricky. You have to rearrange all the components, add in a massive hold and still maintain structural integrity.