Any what if moments?

cthia wrote:

robert132 wrote:
First, of course if the assassination/coup had been successful there would be no Grayson in the alliance.

Second, the only way to have pulled it off without killing Nimitz and Honor would have been if those two had refused Protector Benjamin's invitation which I don't see happening, Honor would want her mentor's mission to succeed no matter the personal cost to her or her dignity.

Manticore wouldn't have felt compelled to help overthrow the Masadans?

I really don't know. IIRC it was Honor and Nimitz's valiant defense of Protector Benjamin along with the "death ride" of HMS Fearless against Thunder of God which provided the final push to bring Grayson's population and government to consider Manticore a worthy ally.

And it was the dinner with Benjamin and his family which finally convinced Captain Harrington that these people were not "neobarbs," but civilized people worthy of defending. That dinner opened her eyes.

If she had pulled out with Fearless and Troubadour as she was considering and reported the mission a failure, and also by extension supporting the report of the Foreign Office representative (senior moment, can't remember his name) by the time Her Majesty's government got around to trying again Masada and Haven would control Grayson and the entire system and Haven would have yet another possible jumping off point to attack Manticoran interests, as I see it.

cthia wrote:

robert132 wrote:
First, of course if the assassination/coup had been successful there would be no Grayson in the alliance.

Second, the only way to have pulled it off without killing Nimitz and Honor would have been if those two had refused Protector Benjamin's invitation which I don't see happening, Honor would want her mentor's mission to succeed no matter the personal cost to her or her dignity.

Manticore wouldn't have felt compelled to help overthrow the Masadans?

robert132 wrote:I really don't know. IIRC it was Honor and Nimitz's valiant defense of Protector Benjamin along with the "death ride" of HMS Fearlessagainst Thunder of Godwhich provided the final push to bring Grayson's population and government to consider Manticore a worthy ally.

And it was the dinner with Benjamin and his family which finally convinced Captain Harrington that these people were not "neobarbs," but civilized people worthy of defending. That dinner opened her eyes.

If she had pulled out with Fearlessand Troubadour as she was considering and reported the mission a failure, and also by extension supporting the report of the Foreign Office representative (senior moment, can't remember his name) by the time Her Majesty's government got around to trying again Masada and Haven would control Grayson and the entire system and Haven would have yet another possible jumping off point to attack Manticoran interests, as I see it.

I can't argue with your logic. Even commend you on your insight and I thought as much as well. That particular dinner engagement was instrumental in paving and cementing a new course for both planets.

What irks me I suppose, is that Maccabeus' plan probably failed simply due to timing. I always wondered, as an afterthought, how it would have effected the outcome had they attacked before Honor and Nimitz had arrived. It may have caused an alternate ending completely different. ISTR that the attack was predicated on the event, or am I just projecting from a finite memory?

Well, one real possibility is that 2nd Marsh never happens, because Honor is off trashing the Andy base at Sachsen, or taking other action against the IAN in Silesia.

What Tourville was supposed to do if he found her from home isn't said, but I can't see him charging all over Silesia looking for her. Most likely he heads for home, trashing Marsh or not as seems best according to his orders [probably not, IMV].

After that? Hard to say, but I'm willing to bet that Gustav would put the brakes on - particularly since the balloon would have gone up long before he was ready for it, and the evidence would suggest that it was much _too_ soon - given that Thunderbolt showed that Haven was still an active threat. No alliance, but status quo ante. Probably no resolution in Silesia, either, unfortunately. What, precisely, that would mean in the period between Thunderbolt and Beatrice is _very_ hard to say, but the Alliance would have had to stand a bit more on the defensive. OTOH, the IAN played little role in anything before Sanskrit, and the light forces otherwise tied up in Silesia would have been in Talbot instead, which would possibly change how things played out there.

You know, in answer to your question: it's entirely possible that the Alignment wouldn't have been driven to the surface nearly as soon. And that would be a major change, because when they did surface they would have had a _much_ bigger club to hand.

cthia wrote:A what if that I actually thought was going to happen during the book.

What if the Andermani turned out to be a bunch of sour krauts and attacked Honor after the Helbarde/Epps confrontation and Honor had to destroy an Andermani ship which led to war?

cthia wrote:What irks me I suppose, is that Maccabeus' plan probably failed simply due to timing. I always wondered, as an afterthought, how it would have effected the outcome had they attacked before Honor and Nimitz had arrived. It may have caused an alternate ending completely different. ISTR that the attack was predicated on the event, or am I just projecting from a finite memory?

IIRC correctly the plan was to implicate Honor in the death of Protector Benjamin and his family use that as a reason to break off negotiations with Manticore. What went wrong was they had no clue as to how dangerous Honor and Nimitz where.

Louis R wrote:Well, one real possibility is that 2nd Marsh never happens, because Honor is off trashing the Andy base at Sachsen, or taking other action against the IAN in Silesia.

What Tourville was supposed to do if he found her from home isn't said, but I can't see him charging all over Silesia looking for her. Most likely he heads for home, trashing Marsh or not as seems best according to his orders [probably not, IMV].

After that? Hard to say, but I'm willing to bet that Gustav would put the brakes on - particularly since the balloon would have gone up long before he was ready for it, and the evidence would suggest that it was much _too_ soon - given that Thunderbolt showed that Haven was still an active threat. No alliance, but status quo ante. Probably no resolution in Silesia, either, unfortunately. What, precisely, that would mean in the period between Thunderbolt and Beatrice is _very_ hard to say, but the Alliance would have had to stand a bit more on the defensive. OTOH, the IAN played little role in anything before Sanskrit, and the light forces otherwise tied up in Silesia would have been in Talbot instead, which would possibly change how things played out there.

You know, in answer to your question: it's entirely possible that the Alignment wouldn't have been driven to the surface nearly as soon. And that would be a major change, because when they did surface they would have had a _much_ bigger club to hand.

cthia wrote:A what if that I actually thought was going to happen during the book.

What if the Andermani turned out to be a bunch of sour krauts and attacked Honor after the Helbarde/Epps confrontation and Honor had to destroy an Andermani ship which led to war?

Nice crystal ball. I hadn't even considered 2nd Marsh.

I'm a bit embarrassed to share this, but I thought I just knew where RFC was going with the storyline at the time. I thought that the Andermani were going to strike a deal with the League to take out Manticore with a permanent treaty to steer clear of them. An alliance if you will. Because the Andies hated everything Manticoran with a passion--with the possible exception of Harrington. Harrington was respected. Brilliance often is. It demands it. There were even Solarians who respected her.

cthia wrote:A what if that I actually thought was going to happen during the book.

What if the Andermani turned out to be a bunch of sour krauts and attacked Honor after the Helbarde/Epps confrontation and Honor had to destroy an Andermani ship which led to war?

Was not Helbarde's destruction of Jessica Epps itself an unprovoked act of war?

Fox2! wrote:

cthia wrote:A what if that I actually thought was going to happen during the book.

What if the Andermani turned out to be a bunch of sour krauts and attacked Honor after the Helbarde/Epps confrontation and Honor had to destroy an Andermani ship which led to war?

Was not Helbarde's destruction of Jessica Epps itself an unprovoked act of war?

Yes it was. But there are precedents for overlooking such things. Try looking up USS Liberty and USS Pueblo.

Fox2! wrote:

cthia wrote:A what if that I actually thought was going to happen during the book.

What if the Andermani turned out to be a bunch of sour krauts and attacked Honor after the Helbarde/Epps confrontation and Honor had to destroy an Andermani ship which led to war?

Was not Helbarde's destruction of Jessica Epps itself an unprovoked act of war?

saber964 wrote:Yes it was. But there are precedents for overlooking such things. Try looking up USS Liberty and USS Pueblo.

Yes, it was an act of war. A blatant act of war I thought. Actually, it felt not too far removed from the same old song that Byng played for Sigbee's ships. And I was appalled that it was pretty much swept under the rug. I don't even think reparations were demanded. Thing is, Manticore isn't in the habit of leaving a man behind or allowing him to die needlessly. They were hurting at the time, and a war with the Andies is not something the RMN wanted, or needed. Yet under any other circumstances, I think some Andy ass would have been grass and Harrington the mower, or at least cooked kraut.

Saber is right though, the precedent is many, and old. And falls under the vein of "the lesser of two evils" and would have represented an irresponsible Manty Admiralty had it not shortstopped war under the circumstances. But dammit, Jessica Epps didn't deserve to die at the hands of the sourest kraut in an Andy can. And Helbarde's CO only got a slap on the wrist iirc.

It was like some Manty Admiral pissed in some Andy Admiral's kraut with the hard-on Helbarde had for Jessica Epps. What's the big deal, it's sour anyways! Heck, the Andies hatred for the RMN rivaled the Leagues' and I didn't think that was possible.

The MWJ sure is the source of many a green-eyed monster.

cthia wrote:

Fox2!" quote="cthia wrote:A what if that I actually thought was going to happen during the book.

What if the Andermani turned out to be a bunch of sour krauts and attacked Honor after the Helbarde/Epps confrontation and Honor had to destroy an Andermani ship which led to war?

Was not Helbarde's destruction of Jessica Epps itself an unprovoked act of war?

saber964 wrote:Yes it was. But there are precedents for overlooking such things. Try looking up USS Liberty and USS Pueblo.

Yes, it was an act of war. A blatant act of war I thought. Actually, it felt not too far removed from the same old song that Byng played for Sigbee's ships. And I was appalled that it was pretty much swept under the rug. I don't even think reparations were demanded. Thing is, Manticore isn't in the habit of leaving a man behind or allowing him to die needlessly. They were hurting at the time, and a war with the Andies is not something the RMN wanted, or needed. Yet under any other circumstances, I think some Andy ass would have been grass and Harrington the mower, or at least cooked kraut.

Saber is right though, the precedent is many, and old. And falls under the vein of "the lesser of two evils" and would have represented an irresponsible Manty Admiralty had it not shortstopped war under the circumstances. But dammit, Jessica Epps didn't deserve to die at the hands of the sourest kraut in an Andy can. And Helbarde's CO only got a slap on the wrist iirc.

It was like some Manty Admiral pissed in some Andy Admiral's kraut with the hard-on Helbarde had for Jessica Epps. What's the big deal, it's sour anyways! Heck, the Andies hatred for the RMN rivaled the Leagues' and I didn't think that was possible.

The MWJ sure is the source of many a green-eyed monster.[/quote]
IIRC Captain Gortz was KIA and Helbarde is a constructive total loss, only a few of her crewmembers survived. As to reparations they were probably under the table or negotiated off screen.

saber964 wrote:As to reparations they were probably under the table or negotiated off screen.

The Manticoran government had Baron High Ridge as PM at the time, and thus would be more likely to pay reparations than demand them. By preference High Ridge and company would have simply ignored the incident if at all possible.