Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles

Weird Harold wrote:

munroburton wrote:By tossing the FTL part of it. He just wants the tactical computer and LS control repeaters, so each ship can control eight or ten times more missiles with its current set of links.

Then it is really more of a solution in search of a problem than I thought it is. The need for a control missile in the Apollo system is to improve accuracy at long range by adding FTL to the control loop. The multiplication of control links by Apollo is just an unfortunate side effect of not being able to fit the necessary FTL transceivers in individual missiles.

With the Mod-G warhead, the Mk16 is a capital-grade missile that is five times as powerful as cruiser-grade missiles; that should equate to one-fifth as many missiles required to kill an enemy ship -- up to and including SLN quality SDs! The need is to improve long-range accuracy for one-fifth as many missiles instead of providing inadequate control links for eight times as many missiles.

If numbers of missiles are required to swamp enemy missile defenses, add one Dragon's Teeth EW missile for every hundred extra missiles needed. As long as the enemy sees hundreds of missiles, it won't matter a great deal if only eighteen or twenty are real attack missiles.

Your missile is useless if it doesn't get to attack range. You have to get through enemy defenses to do that. Using your dazzlers and dragon's teeth will improve your chances that some of your attack missiles get through but even if you use those, some of your attack missiles will get swatted.

The other part of the equation on how to hit the enemy is your salvo size. You can attack the enemy without using Dazzlers/Dragon's Teeth/old ECM missiles and you can get hits in if your salvo is large enough their active defenses cannot take them all out before they get to attack range. That however is wasteful.

That is why attack missiles are usually accompanied by dazzlers/dragons teeth/old ecm missiles. To increase the chances that some missiles will get through the defenses without using up too many missiles to do it.

The reason why the other posters are saying the singleton should just run when faced with a squadron is due to the fact that normally, a singleton does not have the capability to throw a large enough salvo (with or without penaids) to deal decent damage to the enemy. It will just be pissing in the wind and wasting missiles.
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The unfortunate side effect can be used to have a backup plan to enable singletons or even pairs of light ships to have the ability to flush their entire magazines and have decent control over the entire brood.

This is going to be useful because the enemy's only chance to get some 'wins' is to attack with huge numerical superiority vs light ships or pairs of them that their defenses can handle. Waiting to develop a tool that can be used to deter this tactic is negligence to the highest level.

This control missile might not have FTL capability but the use of FTL drones can still improve the data that is being sent to the salvo's missiles. Starting at some point on the attack run, the control missile will be improving on the data from the ship since its sensors are getting first hand info on the target. The fact that it's main job is to control other missiles means the AI installed in it will be much much more powerful than the ones on individual attack missiles which means it will still help in getting its brood get into attack range.

Simply consider the following situation.

1 Roland firing off 10 salvos of 12 missiles each, 4 D/DT + 8 Attack vs 4 BCs. In Monica, 3 BCs swatted 30 missiles out of a salvo of 35 which included 4 D/DT.

vs

1 Roland firing off a salvo of 120 missiles, 20 D/DT + 12 Control missiles 88 Attack missiles vs 4 BCs. In Saltash, 20 D/DT in a salvo of 120 made the salvo effective enough to take out a BC. I am not sure if the removal of 12 attack missiles will result in the BC not getting destroyed/mission killed but I believe the same result is going to happen.


The second option will take out 2 BCs when the Roland runs out of missiles.

The first option might damage 1 of the BCs before the Roland runs out of missiles.

I'm sure the 2nd option is the one most people will choose especially if the situation is desperate.

SWM wrote:Looking back at the original proposal, I see this:

Rakhmamort wrote:What I am thinking about is this, is it possible to modify Dazzlers/Dragon's Teeth to act as a control missile for shipboard launched missiles to free up control links so Destroyers/Cruisers can control far more missiles than normal.

It sure sounds like you are talking about launching these control missiles from shipboard. That's what everyone else apparently thought, too, based on your original post. If that's not what you meant, I think you need to rewrite the proposal and try again.

Yes, the control missiles will be launched from shipboard. At first I asked if they can be included in Dazzlers/Dragon's Teeth missile modules but since it is highly unlikely, I went for a control missile. If they can shoehorn an FTL receiver, better, if not, then its not much different from how the Apollo pods were used in Spindle, controlled thru light speed channels. The only difference is, the Apollo birds in Spindle were updating the controlling ships via FTL which is why the use of FTL RD to update the firing ship would be highly desirable.

The control missile is also not for normal use when the ships are in groups that will have no trouble saturating the enemy defenses. The control missiles will be for emergency purposes when the situation needs salvos that are larger than what the ship can normally control.


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Here are facts:
1) The only pods that have control missiles are Apollo pods.
2) Light combatants don't have and won't have keyhole II capability so even if they are towing apollo pods, they are not going to be using the FTL capability for updating the missiles.
3) Light combatants in single ships or in pairs would most likely not have the throw weight to get through an integrated defense of a solarian BC squadron.

The SLN's tactic will most likely be throwing forces with overwhelming numerical and tonnage advantage vs RMN detachments that do not have the capability to swamp their defenses. They know about saltash, they know 5 DDs can swamp 4 BCs' defenses. The enemy learns from their mistakes from time to time.

Rakhmamort wrote:The SLN's tactic will most likely be throwing forces with overwhelming numerical and tonnage advantage vs RMN detachments that do not have the capability to swamp their defenses. They know about saltash, they know 5 DDs can swamp 4 BCs' defenses. The enemy learns from their mistakes from time to time.

The ships most at risk from your presumed "overwhelming numerical advantage" tactic are not those Rolands and Saganami-Cs armed with Mk-16Gs but the Wolfhounds and Avalons in (or withdrawn from) Manticoran Silesia or legacy Destroyers and Cruisers. Even those armed with the ERM and LERM single drive missiles are going to be at a disadvantage when one-on-one against more than a class higher and/or cataphract missile pods.

You don't give enough weight to effectiveness of the Mod-G warhead and give far too much weight to attaining overkill with limited launchers and magazine capacity. Any ship armed with Mk-16s that gets within missile range of any SLN task force has screwed up badly. Any division of Rolands that can't kill at least twice their number of SLN BCs without getting in range of the SLN ships is probably commanded by someone too stupid to live.

Finding a way to improve accuracy and/or throw weight for Wolfhounds, Avalons, and legacy DD/CL designs would be a far better use of resources than decreasing the already minimal missile load of a Roland.

Rakhmamort wrote:The SLN's tactic will most likely be throwing forces with overwhelming numerical and tonnage advantage vs RMN detachments that do not have the capability to swamp their defenses. They know about saltash, they know 5 DDs can swamp 4 BCs' defenses. The enemy learns from their mistakes from time to time.

I havn't weighed in until now, but this whole thread brings to mind 2 previous, lengthy threads - The Nike vs SD energy dual and Equiping Mk 23s on BC(p)s

The basic outcome (and RFC's comments) of both of them was that even if they could win, BCs had zero buisness going toe to toe with SDs. BCs were armed with Mk 16s because they were BCs and were not intended to be used against wallers and admirals should not be using them as wallers (which they would be more tempted to do if they carried Mk 23s). A Nike may have SD energy armamaents and SD Armor, but it doesn't mount the same amount of either, so while it would probably win an energy battle with all advantages considered, the Captain would be taking inappropriate levels of risk to ship and crew to do so.

This is not to say that Admirals have not already used BCs as SDs replacements - just that they shouldn't, and the overall outcomes proved the basic rule.

At Saltash, If Mike knew that there may be BCs there, she would have sent a division of Sag-Cs, some Nikes, or a CLAC - NOT 5 Rolands. Instead we get a "Meeting Engagement" where opposing forces run into each other in an unprepared way. Zvala was forced to do the best with what he had - and the results were... favorable. However, if he had not played his cards right or an unexpected defensive upgrade reached Saltash, it might not have - BC on DD battles have a tendancy of leaving broken DDs in their wake.

And the RMN knows it shouldn't plan on Destroyers taking on BCs. Yes, it knows events like what is being suppposed in this thread may happen AND it creates sims so it's leaders and crews will know how to react in those situations. But if they know 2-3 squadrons of BCs may be pouncing on a convoy, the answer will not be nastier destroyer munitions, it will be appropriate force levels guarding convoys.

Theemile wrote:


I havn't weighed in until now, but this whole thread brings to mind 2 previous, lengthy threads - The Nike vs SD energy dual and Equiping Mk 23s on BC(p)s

The basic outcome (and RFC's comments) of both of them was that even if they could win, BCs had zero buisness going toe to toe with SDs. BCs were armed with Mk 16s because they were BCs and were not intended to be used against wallers and admirals should not be using them as wallers (which they would be more tempted to do if they carried Mk 23s). A Nike may have SD energy armamaents and SD Armor, but it doesn't mount the same amount of either, so while it would probably win an energy battle with all advantages considered, the Captain would be taking inappropriate levels of risk to ship and crew to do so.

It might seem the same but it is different. Having control missiles does not empower a DD to go in close to BCs and engaged in energy combat no matter how much damage its missiles have dealt the BCs.

Given the fact that the use of control missiles means the ship is blowing its entire magazine, the thought of it continuing to continue doing battle (against a force where it needed to use all of its missiles) is ludicrous.

This is not to say that Admirals have not already used BCs as SDs replacements - just that they shouldn't, and the overall outcomes proved the basic rule.

At Saltash, If Mike knew that there may be BCs there, she would have sent a division of Sag-Cs, some Nikes, or a CLAC - NOT 5 Rolands. Instead we get a "Meeting Engagement" where opposing forces run into each other in an unprepared way. Zvala was forced to do the best with what he had - and the results were... favorable. However, if he had not played his cards right or an unexpected defensive upgrade reached Saltash, it might not have - BC on DD battles have a tendancy of leaving broken DDs in their wake.

And the RMN knows it shouldn't plan on Destroyers taking on BCs. Yes, it knows events like what is being suppposed in this thread may happen AND it creates sims so it's leaders and crews will know how to react in those situations. But if they know 2-3 squadrons of BCs may be pouncing on a convoy, the answer will not be nastier destroyer munitions, it will be appropriate force levels guarding convoys.

And yet that kind of scenario will happen again. The enemy wants to win too and they are not going to act the way you want them to act.

So in cases where the escort cannot do anything vs the ambushing force,it's run away or suicide while doing minimal damage or give them a tool so they can improve the chances of escape for their wards without the need to sacrifice themselves?

Weird Harold wrote:

Rakhmamort wrote:The SLN's tactic will most likely be throwing forces with overwhelming numerical and tonnage advantage vs RMN detachments that do not have the capability to swamp their defenses. They know about saltash, they know 5 DDs can swamp 4 BCs' defenses. The enemy learns from their mistakes from time to time.

The ships most at risk from your presumed "overwhelming numerical advantage" tactic are not those Rolands and Saganami-Cs armed with Mk-16Gs but the Wolfhounds and Avalons in (or withdrawn from) Manticoran Silesia or legacy Destroyers and Cruisers. Even those armed with the ERM and LERM single drive missiles are going to be at a disadvantage when one-on-one against more than a class higher and/or cataphract missile pods.

You don't give enough weight to effectiveness of the Mod-G warhead and give far too much weight to attaining overkill with limited launchers and magazine capacity. Any ship armed with Mk-16s that gets within missile range of any SLN task force has screwed up badly. Any division of Rolands that can't kill at least twice their number of SLN BCs without getting in range of the SLN ships is probably commanded by someone too stupid to live.

Finding a way to improve accuracy and/or throw weight for Wolfhounds, Avalons, and legacy DD/CL designs would be a far better use of resources than decreasing the already minimal missile load of a Roland.

The Mod G isn't the ultimate 'it can do everything' light combatant missile. The warhead is USELESS if it doesn't get into attack range. It has been shown that 3 old solly BCs can reasonably defend against a 35-missile salvo of Mark 16s (which is where your Mod G warheads are attached).

I don't have a problem with you claim of a pair of rolands being able to take on twice their number of solarian BCs, the problem is, the Sollies know that too. Are you suggesting that the sollies are just going to send 4 BCs against 4 Rolands again and again even though they know those 4 BCs are going to be wreckage afterwards and the rolands are going to be untouched? You should not rely on the enemy being complete idiots. The fact that the first step they SLN is doing is to reduce the tech gap and their primary focus is missile combat (which they know they are lagging so far behind in offense and defense) just means they are not stupid. The enemy will improve their ships and they will employ dirty tactics including ganging up on individual manty ships with huge numerical superiority.

Sure, the SLN is eventually going to wise up to the fact that it can't take Manticoran, or even Havenite, ships without overwhelming odds.

However, I submit to you that if the SLN decides to send its commerce raiders in multiple squadron units and keep them together, GA commerce protection forces will not consist of singleton destroyers without pods for very long, even assuming they ever did. Okay, sure, they might be Havenite pods if the RMN are paranoid about their supply of missiles and pods until they've got some production lines up and running again.
And, in any event, the use of multi-squadron task groups effectively limits the number of SLN raider groups. Remember, Frontier Fleet was strained and short of hulls in peacetime. In addition, there's the point that the SLN can't pull that many squadrons together and send them out in organized groups very quickly - remember, these FF battlecruisers are distributed widely throughout the Protectorates and the Verge, and you can't pull too many from any one place without it being stripped completely - and no OFS governor or FF sector commander is going to willingly give up large portions of their FF detachments.
It'll take months to get orders out, months for the ships obeying those orders to concentrate in sufficient numbers, and then more months to get to where they can start looking for GA shipping - remember, the League has lost use of the wormhole network, and Manticore has pulled its shipping from the League. That means the only place the SLN knows they can find Manticoran merchants to raid is way the heck out near Manticore, Silesia, Haven, and the Andermani. Anywhere else, they're going to have to make inquiries as to whether or not Manticoran shipping is still serving the area when they arrive, which will tip off the locals, and thus the Manticorans.
In addition, with larger, yet fewer, groups, so as to guarantee, or at least increase the likelihood, of obtaining overwhelming odds in favor of the SLN raiders, that reduces the opportunities for intercepting Manticoran/GA shipping.


Also ... any GA/RMNship assigned to commerce protection where the Sollies can reasonably get at is certain to be carrying pods, and probably operating with at least one cohort, or is a heavier ship, meaning, if Rolands, a potential of 72 missiles per stacked salvo or pod launch, not 36.

Look, any solo Roland that detects a squadron of SLN BCs is not going to go hunting the Sollies. The Roland will seek to avoid action, and in most cases, the Sollies will not be able to force action, or maintain combat range of the Roland for very long.
In the event that the SLN BC squadron has spotted a convoy under escort, there are likely to be a minimum of two or three escorting ships, possibly/probably supplemented by LACs, the convoy will be ordered to either scatter or run together, depending on the escort commander's threat assessment and confidence, and the convoy escorts will open with pod-launched missiles, not internal tubes. And the missile pods are likely to be loaded with capital MDMs, meaning a single salvo will probably get a minimum of a mission kill on its BC target.


Short version: If there's a solo Roland, it's going to be able to run circles around a SLN BC squadron, and they won't be able to force an engagement. If it's not solo and has to engage for whatever reason, it's not going to be engaging a SLN BC squadron without pods, or by itself.
This is the RMN - they're not stupid either, and they are really rather good at commerce protection, and have a modicum of actual warfighting experience - against an opponent with similar capabilities - as well. The SLN is still feeling its way into the modern combat environment.

Kytheros wrote:Short version: If there's a solo Roland, it's going to be able to run circles around a SLN BC squadron, and they won't be able to force an engagement. If it's not solo and has to engage for whatever reason, it's not going to be engaging a SLN BC squadron without pods, or by itself.
This is the RMN - they're not stupid either, and they are really rather good at commerce protection, and have a modicum of actual warfighting experience - against an opponent with similar capabilities - as well. The SLN is still feeling its way into the modern combat environment.

There is no issue about a Manticoran ship running circles around Solly ships. If there is no problem doing that, then there is no reason for the Manticoran ship not to run away. The reason why it has to deal damage to the solly force is also the reason why it cannot do that. It has to protect something.

As for having heavy escorts for merchant convoys, do note that the Manticoran merchant marine has carried a huge chunk of the cargo in solly space. Considering there are a lot of solly merchant ships, that means the number of manticoran merchant ships is huge. It probably has more than 10 times the number of hulls as the entire Manticoran navy. I don't know the exact numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if it is higher than that. The RMN cannot supply each and every merch convoy with a lot of navy ships. There will be convoys with little or no escorts. There will be convoys where the number of merchant ships is too low to deploy more than 1 or 2 ships as escorts.

The sollies need only to use multi-squadron sized commerce raiding force a couple of times to force the RMN to increase the size/number of the escorts. This tactic is going to stretch the RMN's capabilities since they need to defend everywhere while the solly raiders will only attack where they find weakness.

If the only deterrent to that is to use more/bigger ships, then the sollies' tactics has already succeeded.

Rakhmamort wrote:The Mod G isn't the ultimate 'it can do everything' light combatant missile. The warhead is USELESS if it doesn't get into attack range. It has been shown that 3 old solly BCs can reasonably defend against a 35-missile salvo of Mark 16s (which is where your Mod G warheads are attached).

Enough of those 35 missile salvo got through to eventually destroy those BCs, though, and that's with the smaller 15MT warhead. There may have been only five missiles get through, but if they were Mod-G they would have done far more damage than the older Mk-16s and killed the BCs with fewer missiles.

That should be your real goal; find a way to make a limited missile supply kill more ships instead of finding a way to fire all available missiles at once.

Rakhmamort wrote:I don't have a problem with you claim of a pair of rolands being able to take on twice their number of solarian BCs, the problem is, the Sollies know that too. Are you suggesting that the sollies are just going to send 4 BCs against 4 Rolands again and again even though they know those 4 BCs are going to be wreckage afterwards and the rolands are going to be untouched? You should not rely on the enemy being complete idiots.

Operation Raging Justice was supposed to provide Adm Filareta with overwhelming force. How did that work out?

Sure the SLN will attempt to apply overwhelming force, but every attampt they've made so far has just demonstrated how outclassed their ships are. Eventually they'll get a situation where they actually do have overwhelming force, but they don't have enough ships to apply it consistently.

Rakhmamort wrote:The fact that the first step they SLN is doing is to reduce the tech gap and their primary focus is missile combat (which they know they are lagging so far behind in offense and defense) just means they are not stupid. The enemy will improve their ships and they will employ dirty tactics including ganging up on individual manty ships with huge numerical superiority.

Where are they going to get the ships to consistently gang up with a huge numerical superiority? Bear in mind that Raging Justice required months to assemble and bring to Manticore and that "overwhelming force" lasted mere minutes.

Why do you think they'll be able to assemble and deploy forces big enough quickly enough and quietly enough that Manticore won't have an equally overwhelming task force out searching for them?

The only way the SLN can assemble "overwhelming numbers" is to pull every Frontier Fleet ship and every Battle Fleet screen and send them out in search of Grand Alliance shipping. That's going to uncover all of those trouble spots where FF has kept the lid on protectorates and pirates?

It is also going to keep those same ships from protecting Solarian commerce from Grand Alliance commerce raiders. You do remember that Lacoon II includes plans for commerce raiding? When Solarian Corporations and Transstellars start whining which is going to get more ships -- Commerce raiding or commerce protection?

Rakhmamort wrote:The sollies need only to use multi-squadron sized commerce raiding force a couple of times to force the RMN to increase the size/number of the escorts. This tactic is going to stretch the RMN's capabilities since they need to defend everywhere while the solly raiders will only attack where they find weakness.

If the only deterrent to that is to use more/bigger ships, then the sollies' tactics has already succeeded.

If the Sollies are clumping their commerce raiders in multi-squadron task forces, the obvious response is to dispense with convoys. Use SDF craft to escort freighters past the hyper limit and send them off. If the Sollies want to waste a dozen BCs chasing down one freighter, well....