The Problem with Haven

I know that the subject of discussion comes up from time to time and can't be completely be avoided.

However I am on the forums to discuss the writing of David Weber. There is a place on the forum where extended discussion of current political covictions and events is apropriate. This ain't it.

Don

hanuman wrote:

Duckk wrote:As I believe I mentioned at one point in the past, I let discussions go on in the hopes it will self correct. By the time it becomes necessary to stage an intervention, I really don't care who started it, just that it stops or goes to the appropriate forum.

I have noticed that. And it usually results in quite an abrupt cessation of hostilities. Maybe Mr Weber should devise a doomsday weapon based on you...you know, so frightening that NO ONE in their right mind would dare attack the polity with that weapon in their arsenal.

Now we just need to decide upon a name for the weapon. My choice? The Duckk-mobile.

Duckkhammer sounds better. Duckk-mobile sounds like something you hang in a baby's crib.

MaxxQ wrote:Duckkhammer sounds better. Duckk-mobile sounds like something you hang in a baby's crib.

MaxxQ, I was thinking more of the duckmobile from Duck Tails - you know, whenever it appears, it's bad news for the baddies.

But I like 'Duckkhammer' a lot too. Maybe a whole arsenal of different Duckk-derived weapons and weapons platforms?

Btw, I have a question. I read elsewhere that Mr Weber is planning another spin-off series and you commented on it. Can you tell me more, please? I haven't read any news about such a series and I'm curious...

hanuman wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:Duckkhammer sounds better. Duckk-mobile sounds like something you hang in a baby's crib.

MaxxQ, I was thinking more of the duckmobile from Duck Tails - you know, whenever it appears, it's bad news for the baddies.

But I like 'Duckkhammer' a lot too. Maybe a whole arsenal of different Duckk-derived weapons and weapons platforms?

Oh, I knew what you meant right off the bat, although I was thinking more along the lines of the Batmobile - never saw Duck Tails/Tales; I'm 49 and depending on when it aired, I might not even have been in the U.S. at the time.

hanuman wrote:Btw, I have a question. I read elsewhere that Mr Weber is planning another spin-off series and you commented on it. Can you tell me more, please? I haven't read any news about such a series and I'm curious...

Hmmm... not sure what series you mean. Can you point me to where I commented on this?

The only new-ish spin-off series I can think of off the top of my head is the Manticore Ascendant series (or, as I call it, the Travis series) that he's cowriting with Timothy Zahn and Tom Pope. The e-arc for the fist book is available now, and I think the book goes on sale in October.

Duckk wrote:Who said I blamed you?

No one.

Given past precedent, I expected that you would simply out of habit.

MaxxQ wrote:Hmmm... not sure what series you mean. Can you point me to where I commented on this?

The only new-ish spin-off series I can think of off the top of my head is the Manticore Ascendant series (or, as I call it, the Travis series) that he's cowriting with Timothy Zahn and Tom Pope. The e-arc for the fist book is available now, and I think the book goes on sale in October.

Hey MaxxQ, at one point about 2-3 years ago, RFC mentioned that he was going to do a book on Honor's Dad's time in the Marines and why his change to Medicine. We know part of that told in the "Beginnings" short story where Honor's parents hook up, but do you know if RFC is going to develop the story line further and write the book, or if the SS got it out of his system?

MaxxQ wrote:
Hmmm... not sure what series you mean. Can you point me to where I commented on this?

The only new-ish spin-off series I can think of off the top of my head is the Manticore Ascendant series (or, as I call it, the Travis series) that he's cowriting with Timothy Zahn and Tom Pope. The e-arc for the fist book is available now, and I think the book goes on sale in October.

That's the one I was asking about, yeah.

Hey, we ARE talking about space combat here, so your Duckkhammer would need a mobile platform to get it to where it can wreak the most havoc...

Wow. I'm not sure how it happened but we seem to have drifted pretty far afield from the topic guys. Here is my attempt to get us back on track:

roseandheather wrote:

DarkEnigma wrote:1) Manticore did not represent an imminent danger to Haven at any time during the cease fire (I understand that haven was legitimately frustrated by High Ridge's intransigence, but that is a far cry from being existentially threatened).

Uh, yes, it goddamn well did. Prior to the cease-fire - which Eloise and Elizabeth both knew full well had only been called because of the idiocy of the High Ridge administration - Manticore had been a heartbeat away from forcing total surrender on Haven and controlling the orbitals of the home system - home planet - itself. For all Eloise knew, one swift change in government and Manticore would make that fatal strike against Haven. With a week's distance between them even with Trevor's Star, any notification of said change in government would probably arrive light-seconds ahead of a really pissed off Manticoran naval fleet!

Perhaps a definition in terms is in order. By "imminent" I was referring to Manticore having the political will, ability, and intent to strike Haven, and be actively marshalling resources in that effort. At no time during the cease fire did this circumstance pertain.

As you will recall High Ridge gutted the Navy, its support structure, and its manufacturing ability. It would take time to bring these back online. Further, Manticore is a reasonably transparent democratic republic with a history of stability and methodical changes of regime (unlike Haven). This means that any change in governance would be telegraphed by an election which would presumably have polls to gauge the public mood well in advance.

All of the above would be clearly evident to Pritchart and give her much forewarning before Manticore became an imminent threat to Haven. I know you are a fan of Eloise Rose, but if you look at this objectively, there was no imminent existential threat to Haven when she decided to go to war.

hanuman wrote:DarkEnigma, you seem to think that the treecats are Elizabeth's to give, as if they are no more than animals or pets. SNIP

I think nothing of the sort. However, sentient or not, for Treecats to get from Manticore to Haven, Queen Elizabeth has to allow it. Treecats have no starships of their own after all, and even if they did, because of their unique abilities and the fact that they are Royal subjects, Elizabeth could simply revoke their passports in the name of maintaining a crucial edge over a wartime foe. The same restrictions are no doubt put on scientists and engineers to keep their knowledge out of enemy hands.

n7axw wrote:And right in the middle of this sits Manticore, sitting on its conquered systems and refusing to negotiate a peace treaty. Further, as far as Eloise could see at the time, falsifying the diplomatic correspondence, which so far as she could see proved that Manticore had no intention of negotiating in good faith or ever relinquishing systems which Haven believed were rightly a part of the Republic. Any head of state in Prichard's situation who had military options available would be looking to them. And Prichard did. Theisman and Foraker had given them to her.

So what? Haven lost their systems in fair combat. Manticore was under no obligation to return any territory it won to Haven. Do you think Haven ever returned its conquests back to their own governments? It is all well and good for Pritchart to review her military options, but is it honorable to actually use the military option when Manticore was not an imminent threat?

n7axw wrote:Finally, there is no textev to suggest that Haven, under the Republic, ever intended to conquer and absorb Manticore. What Prichard wanted all along was a peace treaty which returned the occupied systems with the exception of Trevor's Star to Haven so they could, if they chose, participate in the rebirth of the Republic. If she had to fight and dictate the terms of that in Mount Royal Palace, she would do it.

What Pritchart wanted and what would actually happen when Haven owned Manticore's orbitals are two very different things. As stated before, the pressure (and temptation) to take advantage of this would be enormous.

hanuman wrote:As for Pritchard's track record, whilst it's true that Elizabeth was most put out by Pritchard's decision (which, by the way, wasn't hers alone and had to be ratified by the Havenite Senate) to go back to war, she and the entire Star Empire were well aware that at no point did Pritchard or the new Republic of Haven's government or armed forces act in any way in a dishonourable manner. In fact, they were scrupulous in their efforts to keep to the accepted tenets of interstellar law wrt warfare. And by doing so, they had managed to undo a LOT of the Manticoran public's hatred and hostility towards Haven.

It is my entire contention that Haven's sneak attack and subsequent attempt to secure Manticore's orbital were less-than-honorable, which is why I balked at Elizabeth's (and Honor's) haste to trust and become close allies with Haven.

Hutch wrote:As for Eliose going back to war, my impression during WoH is that she was fending off the 'war' party, or at least those led by Giancola who wanted a more aggressive approach to negotiations with the Manties. Prichard did most everything she could to get the Manticore Government to make a deal, and ran into the wall of indifference and Delecroixs' (sic?) fumbling (possibly intentional per direction from the MAlignment). All the while holding back those who woudl have pushed the Manties harder and if it led to a resumption of the war, so be it.

So Eliose was under the gun from both sides; given her background history, it is not too surprising that she eventually choose to fight rather than 'flee'.

This is perhaps the strongest argument in support of Haven's preemptive strike. In other words, what you are saying is Pritchart made the calculation that if she didn't go to war, she would loose her position and whoever replaced her would. Thus war with Manticore was inevitable, and better she be in charge (presumably to mitigate the fallout) than whomever won the melee over the scraps of the Republic.

I can see that, and I suppose looking at it through that lens, absolves Prichart personally. Unfortunately it does not absolve Haven as a polity. This theory only underscores the fact that the polity of Haven is a volatile, unscrupulous mess and that even an honorable, savvy President such as Prichart cannot keep it from doing dishonorable or short-sighted things. Which begs the question (again) of why Elizabeth would trust such a capricious entity with Manticore's most precious resources and technology.

Theemile wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:Hmmm... not sure what series you mean. Can you point me to where I commented on this?

The only new-ish spin-off series I can think of off the top of my head is the Manticore Ascendant series (or, as I call it, the Travis series) that he's cowriting with Timothy Zahn and Tom Pope. The e-arc for the fist book is available now, and I think the book goes on sale in October.

Hey MaxxQ, at one point about 2-3 years ago, RFC mentioned that he was going to do a book on Honor's Dad's time in the Marines and why his change to Medicine. We know part of that told in the "Beginnings" short story where Honor's parents hook up, but do you know if RFC is going to develop the story line further and write the book, or if the SS got it out of his system?

I have no idea. I'm not privy to his future plans at all with regards to what stories he may write, or even what technology(ies) might be introduced. I'm just as much in the dark as anyone else here, and the only "special" information I have is what I need to build 3D models.

Not only that, but the 3D models I *have* built and am working on are all "old" tech - I have zero information on anything new other than what's publicly available in the books.

What Pritchart wanted and what would actually happen when Haven owned Manticore's orbitals are two very different things. As stated before, the pressure (and temptation) to take advantage of this would be enormous.

Very good point.

Among other things, there would have been the strong temptation for a bit of revenge, especially with Haven's ongoing economic challenges. The treaty which ended WWI comes to mind and we all know how wonderfully that worked out! Remember Pritchart is not a dictator and in spite of what she wants personally she has to satisfy others, including Giancola's fraction.