Sally goes rogue

tlb wrote:A fleet Admiral's responsibilities might be closer to the Queen's, but she only became that by going to Grayson. It is not clear when she would have attained that rank in Manticore alone (if ever), if she had not shot Pavel Young.

Would Yu have had the cunning to hide the SD's as Honor did and then the imagination to chase away Theisman with a bluff?

She would have, had she survived of course.

She would have retained command of HMS Nike, which means she would have participated in the early battles in the war, including possibly Nightingale, which was a tactical victory for Manticore but costly (it was McQueen's first engagement). Her presence in those battles might have made Manticore's position stronger and allowed her to be promoted to Commodore sooner, if she didn't endanger herself in the process of helping the RMN or get assigned to the retaking of Trevor's Star.

She was captured by Tourville when she was a Commodore, in 1910. I think that if she hadn't challenged and killed Young, she would have attained Commoddore sooner, but she wouldn't have been leading that particular CruRon and wouldn't have been captured. So the rest of her career would have been slower instead: she'd have been part of White Haven's Eighth Fleet so not rising to the prominence levels she did by escaping from Hades and returning from the dead.

She also wouldn't have been a Duchess, so she might still remain expelled from the House of Lords during the High Ridge Government.

penny wrote:How can anyone believe that Honor's support was official??? No, the Queen's support did not have to be written in stone, printed in the faxes. But it would have been nice, as far as Honor was concerned. The Queen DID NOT give Honor official support. She couldn't! Any more than she could shoot the war effort in the foot by avenging her father's death.

I didn't say it was official and I don't think anyone was implying that.

I said it was factual. We know Honor did have the Queen's support, albeit unofficial. It isn't clear Honor knew then she did have it, but other people around her did know, including Mike Henke. It was her father who had arranged for Honor to have her irregularly-scheduled inaugural speech to issue the challenge in the Lords. And of course Mike knew her cousin's temper well.

If Honor had the Queen's official support she would not have been kicked out of the Star Kingdom. Honor arrived on Grayson an emotional wreck. A mere shell of the woman she was. You call that support? With friends like that who needs enemies. I am sure Honor was dumbfounded. 'What just happened? After all I did for my beloved Star Kingdom?'

As a matter of fact, the failure to officially support Honor almost cost the galaxy the best tactician and strategist the galaxy has ever seen! Honor was through with the navy! Grayson had to beg her back into a uniform!

Indeed she arrived an emotional wreck, but she had been in such a state since Paul's death. Her dismissal from active service worsened it, of course, but it wasn't the cause. So not challenging Young and not killing him would not automatically mean she would become well. Her performance aboard Nike (because she would never shirk her duties, so she'd be there) may have suffered, to the point she wouldn't be the tactical genius we know she is.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:She would have retained command of HMS Nike, which means she would have participated in the early battles in the war, including possibly Nightingale, which was a tactical victory for Manticore but costly (it was McQueen's first engagement). Her presence in those battles might have made Manticore's position stronger and allowed her to be promoted to Commodore sooner, if she didn't endanger herself in the process of helping the RMN or get assigned to the retaking of Trevor's Star.

Actually it could have been quite easy for RFC to have her, as captain of HMS Nike, tip the outcomes of Nightingale (compared to historic).

As a mere battlecruiser Nike would have been part of White Haven's screen (if not detached on a raid or something).

If she'd been with the cruisers screening ahead of White Haven then if Honor got a hunch, or a nasty feeling about the situation, she could have ordered Nike to fire a spread of recon drones ahead of the fleet -- which could have revealed the Peep trap much earlier than historic. Quite possibly early enough for White Haven to break away, opening the range to both Peep formations, rather than having to crash past the original one to escape the new one.

He still wouldn't have taken Nightingale in that engagement -- but having got off the pod based alpha strike before breaking clear he'd have taken far fewer losses and thus inflicted a far more favorable attritional exchange upon the Peeps. The minor damage to his wall could quickly have been made good, fresh pods procured, and he could resume grinding his way to Trevor's Star.

tlb wrote:A fleet Admiral's responsibilities might be closer to the Queen's, but she only became that by going to Grayson. It is not clear when she would have attained that rank in Manticore alone (if ever), if she had not shot Pavel Young.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:She would have, had she survived of course.

The one possibility you mentioned: Pavel Young finds some capable assassins. In the restaurant attempt: if he had just hired a sniper, with a single nondescript person inside to alert when she was coming out; then she would likely be dead.

The other possibility is that being denied closure for Paul Tankersley's death causes her to become suicidal. Nimitz could not control her when she first learned of Paul's death, being denied a chance to avenge the murder could throw her back into that cycle. She has already taken two death-rides in combat, what are the chances of surviving a few more when it is not certain that she wants to live?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:How can anyone believe that Honor's support was official??? No, the Queen's support did not have to be written in stone, printed in the faxes. But it would have been nice, as far as Honor was concerned. The Queen DID NOT give Honor official support. She couldn't! Any more than she could shoot the war effort in the foot by avenging her father's death.

I didn't say it was official and I don't think anyone was implying that.

I said it was factual. We know Honor did have the Queen's support, albeit unofficial. It isn't clear Honor knew then she did have it, but other people around her did know, including Mike Henke. It was her father who had arranged for Honor to have her irregularly-scheduled inaugural speech to issue the challenge in the Lords. And of course Mike knew her cousin's temper well.

If Honor had the Queen's official support she would not have been kicked out of the Star Kingdom. Honor arrived on Grayson an emotional wreck. A mere shell of the woman she was. You call that support? With friends like that who needs enemies. I am sure Honor was dumbfounded. 'What just happened? After all I did for my beloved Star Kingdom?'

As a matter of fact, the failure to officially support Honor almost cost the galaxy the best tactician and strategist the galaxy has ever seen! Honor was through with the navy! Grayson had to beg her back into a uniform!

Indeed she arrived an emotional wreck, but she had been in such a state since Paul's death. Her dismissal from active service worsened it, of course, but it wasn't the cause. So not challenging Young and not killing him would not automatically mean she would become well. Her performance aboard Nike (because she would never shirk her duties, so she'd be there) may have suffered, to the point she wouldn't be the tactical genius we know she is.

Not you. Tlb seems to think it was official.

Wait! I might have missed one of the most exciting things that I wanted to happen, Honor going up against McQueen, because she pumped Young full of lead!?

Dammit!

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:She did not have the Queen's support. She had the Queen's understanding. The Queen's support would have been formal, and at least a byline in the faxes. And she would at least have been gift wrapped before she was exiled, err, shipped off, err exiled to Grayson. My point was that she knew the Queen's inner emotions and thus went against the Queen's wishes. Do you think the Queen would have been sad if Honor had not executed Young?

Honor had the exact same responsibility as the Queen as far as the war effort; of prosecuting it as safely as possible with as less loss of life as possible. And failing to shoot it in the foot.

The fact that her actions regarding Young somewhat turned out ok is besides the point.

There is no reason to assume that the Queen's support has to be formalized; it is sufficient that the Queen refused to dissuade her (the Queen has rarely been shy about letting her feelings known). There is no evidence that the Queen's inner emotions were any different than what she stated.

It is ridiculous to claim that the Queen's responsibilities are the same as those of a Captain of the List. Pavel Young hired the murder of the person Honor loved merely to punish her (and him) and to allow that to go unanswered would have destroyed her.

Saying she shot the war effort in the foot cannot be squared with saying her actions turned out okay. Note that she would never believe that killing Pavel Young was detrimental to the war effort, just as ThinksMarkedly implied he was a blot on government.

Who said that? What I said is that Honor's responsibility is the same as the Queen's, as far as the war effort is concerned.

penny wrote:How can anyone believe that Honor's support was official???

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I didn't say it was official and I don't think anyone was implying that.

penny wrote:Not you. Tlb seems to think it was official.

I have NOT used the word "official" with regard to the Queen's support, indeed I have specifically said it never needed to be official. Here is what I have said:

"But, of course, Honor's responsibilities at this time are not the same as the Queen's were at that time and staying on active duty at Manticore is NOT as important as seeking justice - which the Queen supported. The question wasn't about Honor's responsibilities or priorities, but only whether she had the Queen's support and she did."

"There is no reason to assume that the Queen's support has to be formalized; it is sufficient that the Queen refused to dissuade her (the Queen has rarely been shy about letting her feelings known). There is no evidence that the Queen's inner emotions were any different than what she stated."

"The question was whether Honor would act against the direct wishes of the Queen and she did not. She did not need the Queen's official support to fight a duel with Pavel Young."

I think you were the first to use the word "official" and everyone responded negatively to it (as I did in that last quote), even as you did.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:How can anyone believe that Honor's support was official???

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I didn't say it was official and I don't think anyone was implying that.

penny wrote:Not you. Tlb seems to think it was official.

I have NOT used the word "official" with regard to the Queen's support, indeed I have specifically said it never needed to be official. Here is what I have said:

"But, of course, Honor's responsibilities at this time are not the same as the Queen's were at that time and staying on active duty at Manticore is NOT as important as seeking justice - which the Queen supported. The question wasn't about Honor's responsibilities or priorities, but only whether she had the Queen's support and she did."

"There is no reason to assume that the Queen's support has to be formalized; it is sufficient that the Queen refused to dissuade her (the Queen has rarely been shy about letting her feelings known). There is no evidence that the Queen's inner emotions were any different than what she stated."

"The question was whether Honor would act against the direct wishes of the Queen and she did not. She did not need the Queen's official support to fight a duel with Pavel Young."

I think you were the first to use the word "official" and everyone responded negatively to it (as I did in that last quote), even as you did.

No, you asked to give a correct example of Honor going against the Queen in a public setting. Ultimately, the question is a tendril of the title of the thread. Would Sally go rogue? Which essentially comes down to 'Would Honor go against the Queen's wishes.'

Honor went against the Queen's wishes in a public setting. Again, do you think the Queen would have been sad if Honor had not chosen to execute Young? Sure, she understood that Honor wanted to avenge herself and Paul. Beth was once in Honor's shoes. But publicly, it appeared as if Beth supported Honor's actions, since she did not publicly speak out about it. Regardless of whether it was legal or not. She did not support Honor's actions. She understood them. And yes, she knew it was Honor's right. But, if Honor would and can go against the Queen's true wishes, then Honor would and can go rogue.

Honor certainly understood what it would mean for the war effort. Although it was legal to challenge Young and illegal for Hamish to try to talk her out of it, if he did not express why it was not a good idea by informing her the detrimental effect to the war effort, then he did not try hard enough. No way I will believe he did not mention it.

Everyone was probably going 'dammit Honor, why now?'

Meaning, was there a statue of limitations on the right to challenge? Could Honor have waited for a better time? Whenever that was. If there was.

I suppose one could argue that Honor had the Queen's unofficial support, or any of the following synonyms...

clandestinely, privately, secretly, surreptitiously, confidentially, behind closed doors, in private, on the quiet, off the record, on the q.t., backstage, furtively, discreetly, covertly, under cover, stealthily, under the counter, under the table, on the side, in confidence, unofficially, obscurely, intimately, conspiratorially, slyly

.

As all of you seem to imply. But what any of that did for Honor's emotional health was zilch. Seems that Beth's official support would have been an emotional support for Honor.

But Beth could not afford to support Honor openly. But why not? Since it was her legal right. It is because the Youngins would have raised Holy Hell and sabotaged the war effort. And they all did. In fact, it is several of those synonyms that probably did it, as far as the Youngins were concerned. Because since the Queen did not speak out about it, at least saying it was not her wishes, it appeared as if several of those synonyms of support came into play. Namely, conspiratorially and under the table. Which would have aggravated the Young's even more.

Instead of having Honor's back. They kicked her in her back-side.

penny wrote:I suppose one could argue that Honor had the Queen's unofficial support, or any of the following synonyms...

clandestinely, privately, secretly, surreptitiously, confidentially, behind closed doors, in private, on the quiet, off the record, on the q.t., backstage, furtively, discreetly, covertly, under cover, stealthily, under the counter, under the table, on the side, in confidence, unofficially, obscurely, intimately, conspiratorially, slyly

.

As all of you seem to imply. But what any of that did for Honor's emotional health was zilch. Seems that Beth's official support would have been an emotional support for Honor.

But Beth could not afford to support Honor openly. But why not? Since it was her legal right. It is because the Youngins would have raised Holy Hell and sabotaged the war effort. And they all did. In fact, it is several of those synonyms that probably did it, as far as the Youngins were concerned. Because since the Queen did not speak out about it, at least saying it was not her wishes, it appeared as if several of those synonyms of support came into play. Namely, conspiratorially and under the table. Which would have aggravated the Young's even more.

Instead of having Honor's back. They kicked her in her back-side.

Penny/Cthia, I could answer with spoilers here, but this is discussed specifically in Toll of Honor. I'd suggest reading that before continuing this line of thought.