SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority

Mycall4me wrote:Yes, I think that I UNDERSTAND it, but as Johnathan pointed out, my tablet (mobile) is NOT going to make that easy (especially for my tech challenged self) I suppose that I can fire up my pc, sign in and accomplish what I THINK that you're saying, unfortunately that sounds too much like work. So I'll probably muddle through as best as I can, and hope for the best.

But I DO appreciate the enlightenment of the mysteries (well, they're mysteries to me) of the ins and outs of the forum quote system.

Thank you (and thanks to Johnathan)

Then a thing you could do is delete everything except for the text of the most recent posted reply and its quote enclosure. Just don't leave the text to which you respond as a mashup of posts from several people in one heap of words.

Finally if you are responding to the previous post, then the simplest thing you could do would be clear everything and enter your thoughts.

tlb wrote:If the LD's are used as commerce raiders, this would mainly work by posting at the hyperlimit near the closest approach to a planet and blasting anything that arrives when they are most vulnerable. Anyone moving in hyperspace will either be traveling with a wedge or sails. In the case of sails, the LD has to be under sails also; so not invisible. in the case of a wedge, there is a possibility of a passing shot; but it is limited by the decreased detection ability compared to normal space. I hope we will soon see what the author choses to do.

You don’t need LDs for that. You can just use merchant ships to scatter graser torps around the planet at the hyperlimit emergence points where they wait for customers.

kzt wrote:

tlb wrote:If the LD's are used as commerce raiders, this would mainly work by posting at the hyperlimit near the closest approach to a planet and blasting anything that arrives when they are most vulnerable. Anyone moving in hyperspace will either be traveling with a wedge or sails. In the case of sails, the LD has to be under sails also; so not invisible. in the case of a wedge, there is a possibility of a passing shot; but it is limited by the decreased detection ability compared to normal space. I hope we will soon see what the author choses to do.

You don’t need LDs for that. You can just use merchant ships to scatter graser torps around the planet at the hyperlimit emergence points where they wait for customers.

You don't need graser torps for that, any kind of missile that can loiter works.

I think I'm changing my views on the LD's, I think the better analogy is that they are stealth-bombers, get in unseen, drop payload, get out unseen. They aren't intended to be used in a stand-up fight but they have the capability to mount some defense when needed. This also play into the mentality the MAlign has, strike from the shadows.

tlb wrote:If the LD's are used as commerce raiders, this would mainly work by posting at the hyperlimit near the closest approach to a planet and blasting anything that arrives when they are most vulnerable. Anyone moving in hyperspace will either be traveling with a wedge or sails. In the case of sails, the LD has to be under sails also; so not invisible. in the case of a wedge, there is a possibility of a passing shot; but it is limited by the decreased detection ability compared to normal space. I hope we will soon see what the author choses to do.

kzt wrote:You don’t need LDs for that. You can just use merchant ships to scatter graser torps around the planet at the hyperlimit emergence points where they wait for customers.

Joat42 wrote:You don't need graser torps for that, any kind of missile that can loiter works.

The only missiles with the loiter capability (that we know) are the Silver Bullets. A problem with them (that the author chose not to point out) was that they do not communicate with each other (unlike the Apollo control missile), so that multiple missiles could end up targeting the same object. This lack of communication is an essential part of their stealth, but in this role it results in waste and massive overkill. Plus if there is a problem with any one, then it could be captured and examined.

That is why a stealth ship with a unified weapons control and the ability to leave, is a better solution.

tlb wrote:The only missiles with the loiter capability (that we know) are the Silver Bullets. A problem with them (that the author chose not to point out) was that they do not communicate with each other (unlike the Apollo control missile), so that multiple missiles could end up targeting the same object. This lack of communication is an essential part of their stealth, but in this role it results in waste and massive overkill. Plus if there is a problem with any one, then it could be captured and examined.

That is why a stealth ship with a unified weapons control and the ability to leave, is a better solution.

Though Ghosts were designed to be both scouts and forward fire control (or at least to drop forward fire control platforms). A suitably modified freighter could drop a Ghost along with Silver Bullets and the Ghost crew could handle target allocation for them.


Mind you, unless the freighter has legit reason for passing through without transhipping cargo the customs inspections might notice the mods necessary to stick a Ghost into one of its holds. And about the only place a freighter has a legit reason to visit a system without picking up or delivering cargo (either of which would trigger a customs inspection) is when using a wormhole terminus there. So that might make it harder to repeat this trick without detection

tlb wrote:The only missiles with the loiter capability (that we know) are the Silver Bullets. A problem with them (that the author chose not to point out) was that they do not communicate with each other (unlike the Apollo control missile), so that multiple missiles could end up targeting the same object. This lack of communication is an essential part of their stealth, but in this role it results in waste and massive overkill. Plus if there is a problem with any one, then it could be captured and examined.

That is why a stealth ship with a unified weapons control and the ability to leave, is a better solution.

Jonathan_S wrote:Though Ghosts were designed to be both scouts and forward fire control (or at least to drop forward fire control platforms). A suitably modified freighter could drop a Ghost along with Silver Bullets and the Ghost crew could handle target allocation for them.

Mind you, unless the freighter has legit reason for passing through without transhipping cargo the customs inspections might notice the mods necessary to stick a Ghost into one of its holds. And about the only place a freighter has a legit reason to visit a system without picking up or delivering cargo (either of which would trigger a customs inspection) is when using a wormhole terminus there. So that might make it harder to repeat this trick without detection

True, but then why not use a Shark with its own energy weapons (the kind that do not blow up after one use) and dispense with Silver Bullets? It would need to insert from farther out, but does not need a suspicious freighter.

tlb wrote:True, but then why not use a Shark with its own energy weapons (the kind that do not blow up after one use) and dispense with Silver Bullets? It would need to insert from farther out, but does not need a suspicious freighter.

Energy weapons kind of give away your position -- or rather you have to be within a million km of your target (less if it has sidewalls) so when a merchant ship blows that provide a fairly tight "flaming datum" for chasing down the Shark.

Now it could use missiles, but those are visible on grav sensors.
(Though it could potentially drop pods as a minefield, or just for remote fireing so tracing the launch point doesn't give much info on where the ship was)

It could use g-torps; but IIRC each can only carry 3 on its improvised external racks. (And I have to assume Sharks are more expensive and take longer to build than Ghosts; so using cheaper units should let them hit more targets simultaneously -- which is another drawback in using LennyDets for commerce raiding; it's tying up a really scarce and expensive unit for something that should be doable by a cheaper more available one)

So using Sharks is possible, but all these different commerce raiding options have trade-offs.

Mycall4me wrote:Which of course raises the question of exactly how they will be used. Which we debated to death in other threads, ending with ‘future cloudy, ask again later’.

Penny wrote:True, but, somewhere in the middle of the debate - or either from the onset - we unanimously agreed that they are perfectly suited for infrastructure destruction. Even if they are simply used for that, game over.

For you naysayers it will still be Honor Harrington's universe. What's left of it.

I do not understand why someone keeps pointing out that the MA's existence will be proved with the maiden voyages of the LD. I don't think the MA is going to care about their existence being known while they are busy lighting birthday candles all around town. Do something about it if you can!

Mycall4me wrote:Can anyone post a link that will take me to the topic that Penny is referring to? To be specific where the LD ships are speculated on.

The Problem is Attacks against infrastructure can be accomplished with freighters equally as easily as with Lenny Dets. As seen in text, a standard freighter jumps in system and dumps off G-torps on a side vector, then the freighter continues to the planet, drops off legitimate cargo, leaves orbit and exits the system, while the G-torps take the long way around, then hit the infrastructure several weeks later. - heck, the exiting freighter can even send a update to the G-torps as it passes them.

I'm not saying the Lenny Dets don't have a use, it's just we keep coming up with better ways to do every scenario mentioned with conventional hardware.

(Sorry Jonathan & KZT, I see you already addressed this)

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:If the LD's are used as commerce raiders, this would mainly work by posting at the hyperlimit near the closest approach to a planet and blasting anything that arrives when they are most vulnerable. Anyone moving in hyperspace will either be traveling with a wedge or sails. In the case of sails, the LD has to be under sails also; so not invisible. in the case of a wedge, there is a possibility of a passing shot; but it is limited by the decreased detection ability compared to normal space. I hope we will soon see what the author choses to do.

kzt wrote:You don’t need LDs for that. You can just use merchant ships to scatter graser torps around the planet at the hyperlimit emergence points where they wait for customers.

Joat42 wrote:You don't need graser torps for that, any kind of missile that can loiter works.

The only missiles with the loiter capability (that we know) are the Silver Bullets. A problem with them (that the author chose not to point out) was that they do not communicate with each other (unlike the Apollo control missile), so that multiple missiles could end up targeting the same object. This lack of communication is an essential part of their stealth, but in this role it results in waste and massive overkill. Plus if there is a problem with any one, then it could be captured and examined.

That is why a stealth ship with a unified weapons control and the ability to leave, is a better solution.

G torps had a loiter capability - they a have a standard Starship fusion reactor - in OB, they loitered for over a month under their own power before striking. The MA cataphracts have loitering pods, which were used in OB as well.

Every ship, independant of drive system, will leave an emergence signal when they exit hyperspace. so nothing is completely stealth if a system has a basic system detection network. And as show in OB, the munitions the MA has can be launched from outside most systems's detection range - and can be launched from any ship - not just warships.

Theemile wrote:G torps had a loiter capability - they a have a standard Starship fusion reactor - in OB, they loitered for over a month under their own power before striking. The MA cataphracts have loitering pods, which were used in OB as well.

Every ship, independant of drive system, will leave an emergence signal when they exit hyperspace. so nothing is completely stealth if a system has a basic system detection network. And as show in OB, the munitions the MA has can be launched from outside most systems's detection range - and can be launched from any ship - not just warships.

I do not believe that the torpedoes have anything more than capacitors to power them; certainly not a "standard Starship fusion reactor". The Silver Bullets, which are even bigger - stated to be a bit bigger than a Ghost Rider platform, are explicitly stated to have capacitors and the solar panels to keep their charge up; unnecessary if it had even Manticore's mini-reactor. Note that a Dispatch Boat or a Frigate is the smallest ship that can hold a "standard Starship fusion reactor".

I have not found in Mission of Honor how long the torpedoes moved under their own power and I believe much of that month you mention was while they were being carried on the external racks of the Sharks.

Perhaps you were thinking of the laser pinch fusion reactor such as a shuttle has, rather than the gravity compression fusion reactor that a starship has. Frankly, I do not know why the laser pinch fusion is never used in a missile; the only options we have seen are capacitor power or the new mini-reactor (which the Malign do not have).