Cupid

cthia wrote:So, conceivably, Georgia could end up with everything? I'd like that very much.

From slave, to rags, to riches, to royalty. The Lord sure works in mysterious ways.

Nobility (which she already had), not royalty.

The problem is that she will not dare allow Manticore to have any hint of her existence, so in some number of years (defined by statute) she will be declared legally dead and Stefan will be free of her.

PS: note than Stefan was considered to be smarter than Pavel, so he is unlikely to be sent to jail as the post suggested.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:So, conceivably, Georgia could end up with everything? I'd like that very much.

From slave, to rags, to riches, to royalty. The Lord sure works in mysterious ways.

Nobility (which she already had), not royalty.

The problem is that she will not dare allow Manticore to have any hint of her existence, so in some number of years (defined by statute) she will be declared legally dead and Stefan will be free of her.

PS: note than Stefan was considered to be smarter than Pavel, so he is unlikely to be sent to jail as the post suggested.

You are right of course! I shall print a front-page retraction.

From slave, to rags, to riches, to nobility, to 'royalty.'

Um, I was thinking, that she would be thinking 'I finally have it all to myself. I am the Queen and King of my own castle.'

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's possible Manticore has a law that allows the Crown or Parliament or both together to take a title over and extinguish the line. We do know that the title of Crystal Pine reverted to the Crown after the first and only Baroness Crystal Pine was convicted of orchestrating the murder of Duke of Serisburg, which is the only other title we know to have reverted to the Crown. In the case of Serisburg, we know the last Duke died with no issue and no relatives who could claim the title; Baroness Crystal Pine was unmarried so she had no children to inherit the title, but she may have cousins and we do know that titles can go to cousins (Devon Harrington inherited the title from his cousin, when she was presumed dead).

Yeah, that was a weird one. I thought that when tracing a family tree to find an heir you couldn't go any early than the creation of the title. (Basically since Honor's relivant paternal grandparent wasn't in the line of succession, and so neither was her dad or his siblings, that it wouldn't be able to jump to one of their offspring. And yet it did)

So who knows how far Manticore will let the title jump to keep it active.



Hmmm. You've got a good point about the fragility of the titles at the beginning. So, I wonder if they tweaked those inheritance rules, right back at the beginning of their conversion to nobility, to make them more expansive -- as a hedge against that fragility.

After all, they were having all the titles start nearly simultaneously, and right after losing a lot of people to the plague. They probably needed to assure potential investors that the new title they were buying couldn't easily be extinguished should some mischance happen in the first generation or two. (Not to mention reassure the existing colonist who were being ennobled that their families couldn't easily lose the political clout from that; designed to help avoid losing all control to the new post-plague colonists)

cthia wrote:So, conceivably, Georgia could end up with everything? I'd like that very much.

From slave, to rags, to riches, to royalty. The Lord sure works in mysterious ways.

This is definitely a 'yes but really no' situation. She could claim to have been Pavel's paramour (which she kinda was), then Honor shot him and Stefan picked her as well (which he did).

But the second Anton and Catherine Montaigne confronted her and gave her the deal to "leave within 72 hours or we give your real identity to the Ballroom immediately", there was also the requirement she NEVER return to Manticore again.

If she were particularly stupid (which she hasn't proven to be), she could try, but she wouldn't be able to stay as Georgia Sakristos (aka Lady North Hollow), and she'd have to change her entire biometric profile. Facial, eyes, fingerprints, skin and other bodily tissues, basically the same makeover Anton and Victor had to do to sneak back into Mesa prior to UH.

And since Anton+Catherine promised they were only giving her a 72 hour lead before giving the Ballroom her identity as Elaine Komandorski anyways... she's not gonna come anywhere near Manticore again. And by extension probably be avoiding the Republic of Haven, Maya Autonomous Sector, Beowulf Republic, Erewhon Republic, and quite probably even the Andermani Empire.

All are avidly pro-Cherwell, and although they all officially denounce the Ballroom's behaviour, seem to have too many unofficial ties with the Ballroom too. That cuts out between 25 and 50% of known space, so she's undoubtedly run to the opposite side of the League, although due to wormholes she'll never truly be able to get away from Manticoran presence.

Georgia/Elaine is going to be forced to settle for a non-nobility presence for at least a few decades, perhaps even a century. But she'll feel that's probably a small price to pay considering what she did to put her on the Ballrooms list of targets, namely trading an entire freighter of escapee's back to Mesa for her own freedom, prolong and a great deal of money.

If the Ballroom ever catches her, to say she won't enjoy the meeting is about as much of an understatement as saying Victor is just a little dangerous, or that Thandi is only a little deadly.

tlb wrote:PS: note than Stefan was considered to be smarter than Pavel, so he is unlikely to be sent to jail as the post suggested.

Yeah, I just double-checked... he did manage to 'retire into seclusion' after the presumed death of his wife and destruction of his family home; rather than having gone to jail for any crimes he did for High Ridge.

But the Youngs had a bad reputation for decades, and with North Hollow no longer having leverage, it's very unlikely any woman would want to sully her name to marry into it, so Stefan will in all probability die childless within another 200 years or so.

Somtaaw wrote:But the Youngs had a bad reputation for decades, and with North Hollow no longer having leverage, it's very unlikely any woman would want to sully her name to marry into it, so Stefan will in all probability die childless within another 200 years or so.

It's a fairly long time and people can change. And if not him, some other family member can and inherit the title.

We've seen both North Hollow and White Haven in Travis' time. The North Hollow didn't appear to be corrupt (I kept looking, but there was nothing to say that it was the case), while the Admiral White Haven made a gross tactical blunder during the second invasion of Manticore-A and got quietly retired from field command.

tlb wrote:PS: note than Stefan was considered to be smarter than Pavel, so he is unlikely to be sent to jail as the post suggested.

Somtaaw wrote:Yeah, I just double-checked... he did manage to 'retire into seclusion' after the presumed death of his wife and destruction of his family home; rather than having gone to jail for any crimes he did for High Ridge.

But the Youngs had a bad reputation for decades, and with North Hollow no longer having leverage, it's very unlikely any woman would want to sully her name to marry into it, so Stefan will in all probability die childless within another 200 years or so.

We know that there are people who will marry either to have a title or because they think they can reform their partner. What bad reputation the Youngs may have had does not necessarily attach to Stefan, who mainly came into prominence when he ascended to the title, and is mainly held by political rivals. I see no reason to assume that he will not become a very eligible bachelor.

But if he does die childless, the Young family has been around for a long time and doubtless there are branches that we have not read about.

PS: So the Havenite invasion of Manticore is at least the Third Battle of Manticore?

Somtaaw wrote:

cthia wrote:So, conceivably, Georgia could end up with everything? I'd like that very much.

From slave, to rags, to riches, to royalty. The Lord sure works in mysterious ways.

This is definitely a 'yes but really no' situation. She could claim to have been Pavel's paramour (which she kinda was), then Honor shot him and Stefan picked her as well (which he did).

But the second Anton and Catherine Montaigne confronted her and gave her the deal to "leave within 72 hours or we give your real identity to the Ballroom immediately", there was also the requirement she NEVER return to Manticore again.

But NEVER hardly ever is a very long time. It is always followed with "Didn't I tell you to NEVER return?"

But what if she is pregnant by Stefan? In fact, what if she returns and reveals that one of her twin embryos belong to both Pavel and Stefan? She claims they gave her permission to inseminate herself in case of death.

Manticore would be hard pressed to kill the true heir of a title who is pregnant with two more additional heirs. Titles help make a Monarchy strong. The Monarchy does not truly wish to dissolve a title.

Soomtaw wrote:If she were particularly stupid (which she hasn't proven to be), she could try, but she wouldn't be able to stay as Georgia Sakristos (aka Lady North Hollow), and she'd have to change her entire biometric profile. Facial, eyes, fingerprints, skin and other bodily tissues, basically the same makeover Anton and Victor had to do to sneak back into Mesa prior to UH.

And since Anton+Catherine promised they were only giving her a 72 hour lead before giving the Ballroom her identity as Elaine Komandorski anyways... she's not gonna come anywhere near Manticore again. And by extension probably be avoiding the Republic of Haven, Maya Autonomous Sector, Beowulf Republic, Erewhon Republic, and quite probably even the Andermani Empire.

Unless there are some very significant extenuating circumstances petitioning in her favor. It would look bad for the Monarchy to dissolve a title when true heirs are present.

Soomtaaw wrote:All are avidly pro-Cherwell, and although they all officially denounce the Ballroom's behaviour, seem to have too many unofficial ties with the Ballroom too. That cuts out between 25 and 50% of known space, so she's undoubtedly run to the opposite side of the League, although due to wormholes she'll never truly be able to get away from Manticoran presence.

Georgia/Elaine is going to be forced to settle for a non-nobility presence for at least a few decades, perhaps even a century. But she'll feel that's probably a small price to pay considering what she did to put her on the Ballrooms list of targets, namely trading an entire freighter of escapee's back to Mesa for her own freedom, prolong and a great deal of money.

If the Ballroom ever catches her, to say she won't enjoy the meeting is about as much of an understatement as saying Victor is just a little dangerous, or that Thandi is only a little deadly.

If she conveniently appears back on Manticore pregnant after both Pavel and Stefan are dead, things may not be so clear cut. Especially if the Monarchy is desperately searching for an heir.

She just needs to play a well rehearsed song and dance routine about the horrors she suffered as the premier Queen of the C-lines and how she was sexually abused from the tender age of nine. If I am correct and there's actually some validity to it all, then there you go. She could claim insanity overtook her and it became a simple matter of an ongoing case of self-defense. Employ the empathy of all of the anti-slavery states of the entire galaxy.

Extenuating circumstances got me out of a lot of predicaments with my parents. So, I can vouch for the concept.

We may be overlooking the possibility of someone or someones killing Stefan because of the long dark ages of their life being held hostage by the North Hollow files. The family must have made a lot of powerful enemies.

cthia wrote:But what if she is pregnant by Stefan? In fact, what if she returns and reveals that one of her twin embryos belong to both Pavel and Stefan? She claims they gave her permission to inseminate herself in case of death.

Manticore would be hard pressed to kill the true heir of a title who is pregnant with two more additional heirs. Titles help make a Monarchy strong. The Monarchy does not truly wish to dissolve a title.

She was NEVER in danger of being killed by Manticore, they do not have the evidence to charge her with much more than creating a fire and an explosion within city limits. It is the Ballroom that intends to kill her.

Anyway you forget both that there are plenty of people that could inherit the title, if the children do not survive, and that fetuses can be tubed, so a mother need no longer be present.

I doubt that the Monarchy has been made any stronger by this particular title.

cthia wrote:But what if she is pregnant by Stefan? In fact, what if she returns and reveals that one of her twin embryos belong to both Pavel and Stefan? She claims they gave her permission to inseminate herself in case of death.

Manticore would be hard pressed to kill the true heir of a title who is pregnant with two more additional heirs. Titles help make a Monarchy strong. The Monarchy does not truly wish to dissolve a title.

The Landing City PD didn't appear to have enough evidence to convict her of littering, much less of any assassinations that the Manticore Law may still carry death penalty for. After Anton released the information, maybe something changed, but we don't know if there is a death penalty. Even if there is, it would apply to her alone, not to any children she has, so any sentencing of hers can be stayed until she gives birth, possibly for a few years afterwards.

Her problem with Manticore isn't death, it's pure jail. She knows her crimes would warrant her a couple of centuries of jail time, and with prolong, she could live them.

Unless there are some very significant extenuating circumstances petitioning in her favor. It would look bad for the Monarchy to dissolve a title when true heirs are present.

A title going into abeyance (no heirs) merges back to the Crown, it's not extinguished. That's why Queen Elizabeth was Baroness of Crystal Pine and why the title of Duke of Serisburg was available to be given to Michael Winton.

Extinguishing the title must be a really rare occurrence. I suppose it's possible, but like you said, there must be very serious circumstances.

I don't think either applies to North Hollow. The last three Earls were very corrupt, but that need not be a family trait. And besides, presumption of innocence applies: unless all the relatives are dead or in jail, there must be an heir somewhere who could inherit the title.

There must also be procedures for disputing it, so if Georgia decides to come back and do so for her children, she could win. From jail.

She just needs to play a well rehearsed song and dance routine about the horrors she suffered as the premier Queen of the C-lines and how she was sexually abused from the tender age of nine. If I am correct and there's actually some validity to it all, then there you go. She could claim insanity overtook her and it became a simple matter of an ongoing case of self-defense. Employ the empathy of all of the anti-slavery states of the entire galaxy.

She needs to do that before a Ballroom court, not Manticore. That alleged crime did not occur under Manticore jurisdiction. My feeling is that the Ballroom had enough evidence to show she was not mentally impaired at the time, which is why they imposed such a harsh sentence on her and why she was so afraid of them.

The Manticore case is murkier, but more definite. We know she operated as an assassin for years and so does Anton. There is no extenuating circumstance here. But there is the burden of proof. My feeling on this case is that the LCPD investigations and the judicial proceedings will conclude her guilt in absentia, so if she returns, she will have no option but to go to prison (she'll have waived her right to appeal by not appealing).