cthia wrote:I don't think so. Textev adopts the designations on its own. And as I digest it, capital letters ("C"-line) represent entire lines (major lines with significant and specific demarcations in characteristics/ traits) and smaller letters represent variants (minor lines) within that major line.
I think you're reading too much into the text. The speakers and the characters whose thoughts we're privy to can make subtle and inaccurate statements, like the "sublight" case we're seeing in the other thread. Just because one portion of the text says "C-line" doesn't mean that only capital letters are lines. The designation may have become corrupted over the centuries due to imprecise human speech.
Unlike, apparently most of you, I tend to think 26 letters of the alphabet are enough letters to label all of the different lines. Considering there are variants within each line.
I actually agree with that. What I disagree with is your assumption that all the letters we have not seen must have been culled or not used at all, and therefore only the letters we have seen can be in current use. That's the crux of the matter: which line was Elaine? You're assuming it must be one of those we know of, and the rest of the people in the thread are saying there could be others.
There's the other assumption that she must have been gorgeous as a slave, which is unproven too, but far easier to accept, in spite of her having had more than one biosculpt session and necessarily significantly changing her looks.
Mind you, all evidence points to her being a C-line former sex slave. She is indeed beautiful, highly intelligent, and willing to use sex as a tool. I'm just saying that it can't be proven and competing theories have equal validity.
Note, I only used the C-line as an example. Not to infer that any of that line had been culled. Although I question the whereabouts of the A or B (major line). There is no A-line or B-line as far as I can tell.
We know A and B are also sex slave lines, though apparently the C line is the premier product. We haven't met any escaped slave whose designation was reported to be A or B, though.
And if the very first product coming off the line had shown fatal unsolvable flaws in the major characteristics then the entire line will be culled. Remember, each iteration (variant) is dependent on the iteration before it.
But the reverse is not true. A defect introduced in a new iteration need not apply to the earlier iterations. Culling the entire letter would mean also removing those others from the market and never again offering the same letter.
And if you're right that the entire letter gets retired after such an event, then 26 letters aren't enough.
You are not allowing for major unsolvable problems occurring at the beginning of the line. Problems like the kind that would not only STOP THE PRESS, but QUARANTINE the facility!
I made no such statement and do think I am allowing for it. In fact, I was very clear that the first iterations may have been unsuitable for productisation.
Also, we do not know what the production tactics and logic were that was utilized by the MA. Everyone seems to be assuming that each variant of a line C-01b, C-01c, etc., will not be produced concurrently with C-01a. I understand why you would assume that, of any normal operation employing human beings with any kind of moral compass. The MA has no moral compass. And there would be no reason not to produce the entire line in one production run. That saves time. You would only need to cull back to the offending traits. But if the offending traits originated at the beginning of the line, and are too severe and irreparable, then that line will be culled
No one said that, actually.
I agree with the second part of your paragraph: they'd cull as far back as necessary, which could be all the way to the beginning. However, this does not lead to the conclusion that the letter gets retired.
It keeps getting ignored, but textev mentions that entire lines had been culled.
No one is ignoring that. And you may be right that entire letters of the alphabet have been retired due to culling.
But those facts are of no consequence to the issue at hand: we do not have a full list of which letters are in current use. We have a sample and have no idea how complete it is.
I'd go further and say that the sample we have is also very biased because it consists almost exclusively of escaped slaves who've risen to leadership positions. There's no evidence that slaves escape in equally representative ratios in every line and that they achieve equally representative positions in the story so we'd see them. Liberated slaves would show up in a different proportion altogether, but this actually makes the sample worse. We know that not all slave ships had sex slaves and those that did carried maybe a dozen of them, for thousands of other slaves, which makes the representation of former sex slaves in the story completely disproportional.
That really does sound not only like a good book, but my kind of reading. But, my inbox of books to devour has become critical. Anyway, history somewhat has many examples of what you are describing with the music industry and vinyl records on thru digital media. And the video industry with the varying formats, etc. But I am not sure that that concept would wholly apply to the MA, because they seem to have built anti-obsolescence into their operation with "variant." Besides, the research is just as important regardless of whether that particular design becomes obsolete.
Those are not good examples of the issue that Christensen is talking about. You're referring to evolution of products and obsolescence. Those are somewhat easy to see even beforehand. For example, the CD was clearly a better product than cassette and vinyl (except for the people who want to hear the scratches and non-linearity at the ends of the amplifier's range) but it targeted the same market, so sales of one directly impacted on the other. More importantly, it didn't enlarge the market. Instead, he talks about "disruptive innovation" and especially the kind that goes unnoticed because it's not perceived as a competitor, because it enlarges the market and, most insidiously, improves the profit margins of the incumbents for a while.
See the Wikipedia article on disruptive innovation for better examples.
How can there be others? Remember, the entire operation is an illegal operation that would be shut down by supporters of the Beowulf Code if deemed dangerous to mankind. Plus, it would require an Einstein in the field. Leonard was such a giant in the field. The man was literally playing with fire. Lava.
Why can't there be others, just as illegal?
If there can be one Mesa, there can be multiple Mesa planets. Many a warlord would welcome headquartering a company that paid in bribes for his lavish life-style. Not to mention that these other companies could be headquartered in Mesa too -- there's no reason to think that Manpower acquired exclusive rights to this.
Leonard Detweiler was probably a genius, but he did not start either Mesa or Manpower alone. He had other geneticists working with him, and any one of those could have decided to leave and start their own company (many of the famous Silicon Valley companies were founded by people who left another company in the same segment, for example). Beowulf would have continued to produce geneticists by the droves too and some of them may have wanted to abandon the Beowulf Code and follow on Leonard's footsteps. And besides, there's industrial espionage.
That's not to say that they can compete with Manpower. There is such a thing as first mover advantage, after all.
And I think everyone is assuming way too much asserting that the MA could not make a profit. In my experience, it is difficult for an average qualified layman to determine the profitability of an operation even WITH all of the data. We have NONE of their data or of their ultimate strategy for their products. Profitability is NOT always based on the almighty dollar.
We're not saying that. Princess Ruth did. The fact that Manpower was not operating Verdant Vista (now Torch) with a profit motive was the impetus that led them to investigate more and figure out that Manpower operated like a state and not like a company. That's what led Cachat and Zilwicki's trip to Mesa in Torch of Freedom, which led to their meeting with Jack McBryde and the introduction to Herlander Simões, and blew the Alignment wide open.
The fact that no one had noticed this before they did means two things. First, Manpower was very good at hiding the fact it wasn't operating like a profit-motive company and that includes its own middle-management. Second, that the Torch intelligence had for the first time access to records that had not been accessible until then. The first of those is explicit in the text of ToF; the second is implied and my conjecture now.
But going back to the question of other slave-making companies, the conditions for other companies to exist are there. We have never been told of any (and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), but my point is that if there were none, then it should have raised a red flag that there was more to Manpower than the eye could see. And -- again my conjecture here -- because Manpower managed to hide its operations so well for so long, there probably were other slave-making companies out there.
Of course, I have always agreed with that. My point is that sometimes what is necessary is to cull the entire line. Even if sometimes out of uncertainty.
I'm not disputing that statement; I agree. What I am disputing is the definition of "line" and particularly that all instances of the term are equally precise.
