Remaining holes in SLN intel

cthia wrote:..snip..

I love how you are projecting your internalized feelings how the different personas should feel, it does get a bit tedious though.

Being arrogant doesn't mean you also are bigoted. The average citizen in the League most probably doesn't give a damn about Manticore or Beowulf. We have seen examples of arrogant and bigoted BF and FF personnel that resent Manticore - and I think you have equated their feelings with the feelings every Sollie should have.

There are certainly people in the League that hates both Manticore and Beowulf, each for it's own reasons - but so far in the books there is no indication that the Mandarins belong to that group. Well, maybe MacArtney, but he is kind of stupid and gets emotional about anything that threatens him and his fiefdom.

Also, Tsang never got back to Old Earth... Rajampet sat on her to stop her from being questioned about the secret orders.

And if a song and dance routine is your whole argument for me being wrong... Oh jeez...

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:..snip..

I love how you are projecting your internalized feelings how the different personas should feel, it does get a bit tedious though.

Being arrogant doesn't mean you also are bigoted. The average citizen in the League most probably doesn't give a damn about Manticore or Beowulf. We have seen examples of arrogant and bigoted BF and FF personnel that resent Manticore - and I think you have equated their feelings with the feelings every Sollie should have.

There are certainly people in the League that hates both Manticore and Beowulf, each for it's own reasons - but so far in the books there is no indication that the Mandarins belong to that group. Well, maybe MacArtney, but he is kind of stupid and gets emotional about anything that threatens him and his fiefdom.

Also, Tsang never got back to Old Earth... Rajampet sat on her to stop her from being questioned about the secret orders.

And if a song and dance routine is your whole argument for me being wrong... Oh jeez...

That's the problem with words at times. Bigots tend to be arrogant on certain subject...like their superiority to some other people.

Arrogance is certainly present and most of the top Sollies had it. Some of it trickled down as well. There was resentment that Manticore controlled the junction and had so much trade.

But someone like Byng really hate the Manties. Was it bigotry? They had caused him trouble in the past.

Bigotry is a tricky concept.

the manties caused him trouble because he locked up manty spacers without cause, simply because they interfering with his plans to extort money out of solly merchies.

so hard to say if it bigotry or plan hate but byrng started the no doubt mutual antipathy any manty merhies had for him.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:If you truly don't think the criminal profile I've laid down of the Mandarins doesn't hit the stubborn nail with their own big SLN hammer then consider what truly would make them venture back to Beowulf with the intentions of causing bodily harm, knowing full-well that Beowulf is cavorting with the RMN -- who has them dead to rights, outclassed, outmatched, outgunned, dialed and locked in. Only blind road rage would make them throw caution to the wind, risking everything, and hypering back into such a hornet's nest simply for the sake of quelling the burning hot anger ignited by crimes of passion.

If that doesn't work for you, then there's always the 20M dead placed on exhibit B(eowulf).

I truly don't think the Mandarins intend to send in the SLN to murder civilians. That part of it is either a horrible mistake or sabotage.

You seem to be ignoring or forgetting the fact that the MAlign has the SLN penetrated thirteen ways from Sunday. They were able to plant a bomb on Filareta's flagship and poison his ops officer with nanotech in order to force a suicidal attack.

Absolutely nothing stops them from repeating the same trick with Admiral Tsang.

Quite simply, blaming the Mandarins for causing these Beowulfan deaths may turn out to be as unjust as blaming Michelle Henke and Manticore for what transpired on Mesa after 10th Fleet arrived.

The real question is, will the GA react on this basis or will they use the Beowulf incident as a wedge to destroy the League with?

You have just as much of a chance to be right as anyone, munroburton. Personally, I disagree on principle. The SLN has NO business in-system. And if something untoward happens as a preordained Malign design, the idiots had no business in the hornet's den in the first place, making it easy for someone to accidentally stir the hornets up. No one in their right mind plays around a giant nest of hornets.

Let's consider this...

Why does the SLN feel they need to be present at the voting?

After all that has happened, the jealous boyfriend still doesn't see that the girl is gone? That she simply doesn't care for him anymore? The League's apparatchiks are in denial? So they think that there's a chance Beowulf will vote to remain with them? So the League thinks that Manticore is coercing Beowulf, even now after all that has happened?

The League knows how volatile the SLN is in close proximity to the RMN. It has never gone well for them. So they would risk sending another fleet to Beowulf, just to ensure that the voting is done fairly, without RMN influence? LOL

Well, if they think there's a chance that Beowulf is going to vote to remain, then they think that Manticore has made them do what they've done thus far at gunpoint?

The MAlign knows full-well that as soon as the positive voting to secede goes throughout the system, the SLN is going to cry foul (the Russians had their hand in the election) and that is when the missiles will fly. If the MA has stacked the deck, that is the likely point.

There is no way in hell the boyfriend doesn't know that the love is gone and the relationship is over. They are simply scorned lovers now.

Even if just subconsciously, there is only one reason the SLN is really there. To cause problems.

They were shell-shocked and stunned when everything went into the crapper at BOM. They didn't know how to digest it and Tsang went home scratching her head.

When they had time to think about everything and the moment the epiphany hit them about Beowulf...

" Well, I'll be a fucking monkey's uncle!"

And they jumped in their ships and headed back to Beowulf without even bothering to filler-up! LOL

It does boggle the mind a bit.

the mandrins themselves have said that if the RMN intervenes with their attempt to co-erce beowulf into staying, then the SLN is to leave, at a very high speed. saying things like "oh they are fiends of yours? we didn't know. so sorry"

even for the solly public that has be hard to take


the thinking seems to be "well we keep beowulf from leaving and then we sort out any other problems later" but at least 2 of them realise that using verge tactics on a core world is going to mean serious problems later, if they force beowulf to stay, then the other core worlds will start stealthy building fleets and quietly making plans for how to kill the SLN. much like Maya sector has done.

I do hope maya sends in official succession notice in the next book and that they mandrins receive before honor turns up. the reaction should be priceless. especially as the initial reaction will probably be to try and send some ships in to reclaim it. their faces when forces sent to reclaim it or trashed by manty like tech would be a picture.

Dauntless wrote:It does boggle the mind a bit.

the mandrins themselves have said that if the RMN intervenes with their attempt to co-erce beowulf into staying, then the SLN is to leave, at a very high speed. saying things like "oh they are fiends of yours? we didn't know. so sorry"

even for the solly public that has be hard to take


the thinking seems to be "well we keep beowulf from leaving and then we sort out any other problems later" but at least 2 of them realise that using verge tactics on a core world is going to mean serious problems later, if they force beowulf to stay, then the other core worlds will start stealthy building fleets and quietly making plans for how to kill the SLN. much like Maya sector has done.

I do hope maya sends in official succession notice in the next book and that they mandrins receive before honor turns up. the reaction should be priceless. especially as the initial reaction will probably be to try and send some ships in to reclaim it. their faces when forces sent to reclaim it or trashed by manty like tech would be a picture.

in my mind it's not like boyfriend/girlfriend, more like the Big Buck keeping his harem intact at the challenge of another buck. If he loses one female, what's to stop the rest from absconding?

His royal celeriness hath once proclaimed that he was at the point in the story where Maya departs, no more detail than that. But we do know that Pat Givens has directly promised Rosak & Barregos Moriarty and technicians to man it and keep it running.

There is some form for independent shell and core members to secede, even if the Mandarins will challenge it. I don't think a verge sector can "just say Bye" and split. THAT is making the sector governor and any collaborating SLN personnel guilty of treason.

pappilon wrote:

Dauntless wrote:It does boggle the mind a bit.

the mandrins themselves have said that if the RMN intervenes with their attempt to co-erce beowulf into staying, then the SLN is to leave, at a very high speed. saying things like "oh they are fiends of yours? we didn't know. so sorry"

even for the solly public that has be hard to take


the thinking seems to be "well we keep beowulf from leaving and then we sort out any other problems later" but at least 2 of them realise that using verge tactics on a core world is going to mean serious problems later, if they force beowulf to stay, then the other core worlds will start stealthy building fleets and quietly making plans for how to kill the SLN. much like Maya sector has done.

I do hope maya sends in official succession notice in the next book and that they mandrins receive before honor turns up. the reaction should be priceless. especially as the initial reaction will probably be to try and send some ships in to reclaim it. their faces when forces sent to reclaim it or trashed by manty like tech would be a picture.

in my mind it's not like boyfriend/girlfriend, more like the Big Buck keeping his harem intact at the challenge of another buck. If he loses one female, what's to stop the rest from absconding?

His royal celeriness hath once proclaimed that he was at the point in the story where Maya departs, no more detail than that. But we do know that Pat Givens has directly promised Rosak & Barregos Moriarty and technicians to man it and keep it running.

There is some form for independent shell and core members to secede, even if the Mandarins will challenge it. I don't think a verge sector can "just say Bye" and split. THAT is making the sector governor and any collaborating SLN personnel guilty of treason.

There are no good answers for the Mandarins. Having ships in orbit means that even if Beowulfers voted to stay it would be considered coercion. And they almost certainly will vote to leave.

And if the fleet starts shooting, a) they might cause an obvious Eridani violations, b) they might get shot up by Beowulf's navy enhanced by Manticore, Grayson, and Haven's navies, and c) create a really wild political dustup.

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:..snip..

I love how you are projecting your internalized feelings how the different personas should feel, it does get a bit tedious though.

Being arrogant doesn't mean you also are bigoted. The average citizen in the League most probably doesn't give a damn about Manticore or Beowulf. We have seen examples of arrogant and bigoted BF and FF personnel that resent Manticore - and I think you have equated their feelings with the feelings every Sollie should have.

There are certainly people in the League that hates both Manticore and Beowulf, each for it's own reasons - but so far in the books there is no indication that the Mandarins belong to that group. Well, maybe MacArtney, but he is kind of stupid and gets emotional about anything that threatens him and his fiefdom.

Also, Tsang never got back to Old Earth... Rajampet sat on her to stop her from being questioned about the secret orders.

And if a song and dance routine is your whole argument for me being wrong... Oh jeez...

Oh my doggy biscuits. Ra - jam - pet is dead.

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:..snip..

I love how you are projecting your internalized feelings how the different personas should feel, it does get a bit tedious though.

Being arrogant doesn't mean you also are bigoted. The average citizen in the League most probably doesn't give a damn about Manticore or Beowulf. We have seen examples of arrogant and bigoted BF and FF personnel that resent Manticore - and I think you have equated their feelings with the feelings every Sollie should have.

There are certainly people in the League that hates both Manticore and Beowulf, each for it's own reasons - but so far in the books there is no indication that the Mandarins belong to that group. Well, maybe MacArtney, but he is kind of stupid and gets emotional about anything that threatens him and his fiefdom.

Also, Tsang never got back to Old Earth... Rajampet sat on her to stop her from being questioned about the secret orders.

And if a song and dance routine is your whole argument for me being wrong... Oh jeez...

cthia wrote:Oh my doggy biscuits. Ra - jam - pet is dead.

ART, chapter 27, excerpt wrote:"And Rajani still hasn’t managed to get Imogene Tsang to Old Chicago where we could ask her exactly what her orders in Beowulf were, either, has he?" Quartermain observed. She glanced at Kolokoltsov from the corner of one eye. "She was a hell of a lot more confrontational than she was supposed to be. I can’t help wondering if maybe her instructions—and Filareta’s—might not have included a couple of clauses we didn’t know about."

At that point they only have the written report, Tsang never got questioned in person and after that everything kind of spun of out control so they never got back to her.

So, have you re-read the book yet so you can get your facts straight?

Byng is described as being really pissed at "Manticore" because he impounded a Manty civilian freighter without a valid reason and got gigged for that. The crew and freighter were freed because there is no violation and no crime (not the same thing). Not only did they get out what he did, they made him LOOK BAD.
Byng, again, is described as a person brought up in a very specific enviornment and culture that pervades the SL buracray and SLN. He appears always to have felt superior than most people and certainly to any neo-barb merchant captain. Getting made to PUBLICLY LOOK BAD to the buacracy, his fellow officers and anybody else is a major blow to Byng and although he does rise to Admiral (political/family connections and seniority) he just burns to wipe away that obviouis stain on his career and reputation. He also appears to not do a lot of advaced thinking about he is doing and isn't open to much in the way of suggestions or new information that doesn't fit his view of the universe and how things should work for him. So he kills the RMN DDs before they can even power up their impellers and what is his FIRST action after that? He wants ALL of the records of what happen in his hands. Then he will have a suitable report written justifying what he did.

A lot of what happens in this in with the buracrats is either worm & slime your way to power (eliminating or causing damage to any potential rival) quietly or with flare, and cover your ass at all times if you think you might have made a mistake or become vulnerable. Use the biggest hammer you can put your hand on.

I don't think Maya is going to announce anything or leave a note saying "bye". They are just going to keep building as quickly and quietly as they can and stiffen the defences againt League deciding to send anyone or anything to see why they are somehow are not going with the program the Mandarins or anybody elce is running. Stuff the League sends to Maya is going to just become very quiet and will have "run off on somebody's (not clearly defined who's) orders and "sorry, the last we heard from them was they were going X". Maya will continue to swallow assets as long as possible and just keep building.