The Soul of Haven

Since my cage was left open, inadvertently or not, I'll do as much as any untrained puppy. Escape! I'll proceed to be naughty and chew up the furniture again, until resentenced by Rose. LOL

But first. Some old order of business.

I understand that prematurely killing Saint-Just would have made him a martyr. In fact, I was aware of that reality long ago, and I used that premise in another thread. However, at the basis of that same premise lies the fact that it requires Saint-Just to have had a large enough of a following for it to be true. Death will not make you a martyr if everyone wanted you dead. I'm not arguing the fact that Saint-Just had many followers. That fact seems to be obvious to many of you now. A day late and a dollar short. Albeit, I'm not alien to having to pull teeth. Most of you usually catch up, sooner or later. But I digress.

The tasty "martyrdom" morsel brings us back to the scene of a potential crime illuminated in one of my threads that was unceremoniously Duckked. In effect, making it two crimes I suppose. In particular, the POTUS says "Theisman Should Be jailed!" thread.

At the core of that thread, which somehow managed to rub many of you the wrong way, is the thought that all of Haven did not want the restoration of the Old Republic. Therefore, Theisman's actions may have been perceived as traitorous and murderous to that segment of the population who aspired to Saint-Just and his form of government. A fact in which at least one poster, arguably two, is coming to terms, even if in an incidental fashion. If the following possibility comes to pass, it cues the opening conversation of that thread.

Exhibit A...

Louis R wrote: However, as Eloise has already brought to our attention, the jury is in fact still out on the stability of the Republic and not expected to return for a decade or two.

At which point, if the resurrected government of which Eloise and Theisman fought so hard, is toppled and the other rises in place from the ashes, then Theisman may very well find himself charged with the very crimes in which I laid out in that Duckked thread.

kzt wrote:Which, by the way, is why the RMN's current "We'll give you all of our most advanced tech, and all our R&D too" relationship with the RHN has potential for real disaster.

Which is a logic I questioned as well in another thread long ago. The Opposition isn't all stupid, they do have some valid concerns. I, myself, would have chosen to slowly share tech with Haven, contingent on the survivability of its government and its stability. A probationary period, if you will. I think the fact that Manticore was being walled in on both sides was the hole card that forced Beth's hand. If not for the imminent war with the League, I don't think she would have pushed so hard so fast for sharing tech.

To be sure, I'm not trying to resurrect that discussion. God forbid! I'm simply choosing to be thorough. It would be remiss of me not to illuminate the path in which this particular discussion leads.

sharkhunter wrote:Which is the big difference between McQueen and Theisman, aka the Leveler event where McQueen used the Navy against civilians. I'd like to think our dear Thomas would have told a superior officer what to put up their anal orifice if he'd been ordered to do the same thing. snip

I'm not sure that's being wholly fair to McQueen. To resist would have been to fail in her attempt to be placed in a position where she could act. In effect, the same excuse attributed to Theisman for not acting sooner.

BTW, I wasn't saying that it would actually have been a smart thing for Theisman to have acted sooner. Or anyone else. Or even the right thing politically. I'm saying, that it would have been a human or humane thing to do, in the face of all those murders, of especially civilians -- much less the navy. In the aftermath of so many deaths, if executing that SOB would have turned him into a martyr from the cries of the people, then the inherent value of Haven had already been lost and sold to the devil, which meant that it had no soul. And that is the source of my anger. How one could have stood idly by, morally and emotionally, and swallowed all those deaths without snapping is beyond me. My own pressure gauge would have disintegrated much sooner. It is much much worse than expecting Honor to swallow what that cretin Pavel Young did to her. Regardless of what it meant, politically. Sometimes you simply have to decapitate the snake, without regard to what any splaying poison might do.

I've always thought that Alfredo Yu and Warner Caslet carries more inside of them of what undoubtedly captures The Soul of Haven.

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SharkHunter wrote:If Eighth Fleet captures Haven in Buttercup, Foraker & company out at Bolthole also surrender to the RMN

Shannon wasn't at Bolthole during Buttercup, she was still with Tourville and Giscard -- for her infamous "Oops."

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

drothgery wrote:It's probably more interesting to figure out if she could survive as Haven's head of state through a Manticoran occupation. She didn't know about Hassan (and likely would not have approved it), and Haven had no way to defeat 8th Fleet, so she would have had to surrender to the Manticoran Alliance shortly at which point Hamish Alexander would be the actual ruler of Haven.

Very good point--> and an "Honorverse direction" that probably precludes Oyster Bay at least until later in the calendar -- because Albrecht & Co. launched it early AFTER Beatrice took out something like 2/3 of the RMN wall of Battle, rather than waiting for the LennyDets to be completed. If Eighth Fleet captures Haven in Buttercup, Foraker & company out at Bolthole also surrender to the RMN... and probably ends up working with Hemphill a bit later on when a good civilian government (which can still be Pritchart and Theisman driven) takes hold. Plus Pritchart gets to keep Giscard alive as well, which I am sure woulda made RoseAndHeather happy, no?

Thoughts?

Depends. Would I give just about anything for Eloise to have never lost Javier? You bet my overstuffed bookshelves I would.

But note that "just about" - because an independent, restored Republic of Haven is not included. And as much as it hurts her, I think Eloise would agree with me. For she and Javier both their lives were dedicated to a cause bigger than either of them, or both of them combined - and I don't think they, of all people, would surrender that dream for anything in the galaxy. Even each other. Haven's sovereignty mattered far too much.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

drothgery wrote:It's probably more interesting to figure out if she could survive as Haven's head of state through a Manticoran occupation. She didn't know about Hassan (and likely would not have approved it), and Haven had no way to defeat 8th Fleet, so she would have had to surrender to the Manticoran Alliance shortly at which point Hamish Alexander would be the actual ruler of Haven.

Very good point--> and an "Honorverse direction" that probably precludes Oyster Bay at least until later in the calendar -- because Albrecht & Co. launched it early AFTER Beatrice took out something like 2/3 of the RMN wall of Battle, rather than waiting for the LennyDets to be completed. If Eighth Fleet captures Haven in Buttercup, Foraker & company out at Bolthole also surrender to the RMN... and probably ends up working with Hemphill a bit later on when a good civilian government (which can still be Pritchart and Theisman driven) takes hold. Plus Pritchart gets to keep Giscard alive as well, which I am sure woulda made RoseAndHeather happy, no?

Thoughts?

Pardon my boldness to call attention.

Which is part and parcel to what I meant upstream, which lead me to being exiled to a crate on Grayson. LOL

If McQueen had been successful, if someone would have stopped Saint-Just sooner, many good naval officers would still be breathing. Mainly on my mind was a certain love affair, cherished by my banisher, that never got to flourish.

cthia wrote:I've always thought that Alfredo Yu and Warner Caslet carries more inside of them of what undoubtedly captures The Soul of Haven.

Why? Because they acted so much sooner. They had become too fed up to remain on the planet and continue to stomach the many atrocities.

And don't get it twisted. Oh no. They weren't abandoning the fight. On the contrary. They chose to battle the evil from within from without, by joining forces with their enemy. Because for them, at no time in their lives had that old adage rang louder and clearer...

The enemy of my enemy, is my friend.

It is ironic that they are cast as traitors. A fact that has no inkling of a resemblance to truth. However, one effect of this discussion is it allows me to better understand two of the biggest and loyal hearts who ever wore, and then shed, Havenite uniforms.

For to defeat their beloved navy, is to crack the yoke on its back. If the RHN had defeated the RMN under the rule of the Committee of Public Safety, would have been much worse than killing fellow naval officers.

I now bow to you Warner Caslet and Alfredo Yu. Who both deserve a hero's welcome home.

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Louis R wrote:What, pray tell, do you think that a hereditary President For Life is, exactly, if not a monarch?

You're right of course. Yet, I was thinking more of a dictator, given Haven's negative predisposition towards the "nobility" of a monarchy.

However, both are moot points, as I was referring to those who loves Pericard's Republic, which I asume to be the majority of Haven's citizens. Who are opposed to any type of monarchy. It is what got Saint-Just executed. And is why Warner and Alfredo flew the coup long before. Because a dictator or monarchy is so not Pericard's Republic. So, McQueen bringing back the very thing they were trying to replace, compounded by the fact that that it is the same government of its long-time enemy -- in light of the trip in Haven One -- would have been anathema to success. IMO.

If Pericard's Republic does not represent the heart of the majority of Haven's citizens, Haven and the GA have a hard road ahead of them. Under the circumstances, I don't think RMN would recover from that blow. It could certainly prove to be a fatal blow to Beth's efforts politically.

Given the convulsions Haven went through under the Committee of Safety and all of the purges and upheavals, it is quite probable that most of the Alignment operatives are now dead. Think about the levels of problems they would have faced even if they had very secure positions under the Legislarists government and the mass culling of anybody who had supported that regime then State Security and all the rooting out of what would have effectivly "counter revolutionaries"- which is the description of anybody who isn't an active supporter of the Committee or who wants "moderation" in what it was doing to PRH.

I also wonder about the potential problems of SEM giving RoH all that tech. Should the new/"restored" republic fail, things could get quite ugly very fast.

Brigade XO wrote:Given the convulsions Haven went through under the Committee of Safety and all of the purges and upheavals, it is quite probable that most of the Alignment operatives are now dead. Think about the levels of problems they would have faced even if they had very secure positions under the Legislarists government and the mass culling of anybody who had supported that regime then State Security and all the rooting out of what would have effectivly "counter revolutionaries"- which is the description of anybody who isn't an active supporter of the Committee or who wants "moderation" in what it was doing to PRH.

And then any assets they'd placed in the opposition to the Legislarists or in the CoS regime would have gotten taken out during the restoration of the Republic. Even then, they had enough contacts they could help whats-his-name fly into a hillside.

::whaps Cthia on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper::

BAD PUPPY. BACK IN YOUR CRATE.

noblehunter wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Given the convulsions Haven went through under the Committee of Safety and all of the purges and upheavals, it is quite probable that most of the Alignment operatives are now dead. Think about the levels of problems they would have faced even if they had very secure positions under the Legislarists government and the mass culling of anybody who had supported that regime then State Security and all the rooting out of what would have effectivly "counter revolutionaries"- which is the description of anybody who isn't an active supporter of the Committee or who wants "moderation" in what it was doing to PRH.

And then any assets they'd placed in the opposition to the Legislarists or in the CoS regime would have gotten taken out during the restoration of the Republic. Even then, they had enough contacts they could help whats-his-name fly into a hillside.

Yes and No. What assets the MAlign had in long-term from the Legislaturist are 90-95% gone and what probably remains is in retirement or refugeed out post haste.