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[Spoiler - UH] utube snippet

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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by BrightSoul   » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:06 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:First she needs to find out he's in Manty custody. The Manties might be able to keep that secret.

Once that happens turning it against the Manties is simple. She'll discover evidence that DH was involved in various terrorist attacks that killed a whole lot of civilians. She'll interview some people who lost family members who just really want to see this horrible mass murderer brought to justice. She'll give glowing coverage about how the Manties caught the man behind these horrific attacks and ask the Manties when he'll face trial for his horrible, horrible crimes.

O'Hanrahan at no point distorts the facts. She actually gives the Manties good coverage on this! Theoretically another reporter could do it too, but O'Hanrahan has some good "sources".

The Manties can dodge or delay, but they ultimately have a few options:

1) They say he won't face trial. The people who lost family are unbelievably angry. She, or any other reporter looking for an easy scoop, can get as much footage as she wants from grieving widows, grieving parents who lost kids, etc. who are absolutely furious. Kornati demands he be handed over to their local court system for trial and execution. O'Hanrahan can leave it to the opposition parties and other newsies to do the spin.

2) They set a trial date for his various horrific crimes. Evidence is overwhelming and all signs point to him being executed. O'Hanrahan gives Manticore some good coverage, which just goes to show she's in no way biased against Manticore!

How do you think the Treecats will respond to that? I'm guessing the murder of everyone willing to prosecute or testify against DH.

3) Split the difference and give him a deal for life in prison. This might work! But it could also just anger grieving families who want him dead, AND Treecats who don't want a fellow Treecat essentially imprisoned, or cut off from his companion.


Indeed, how so? If her goal is to blacken the Manties how does she spin the facts?

Fact 1) He's a Sollie Gendarme who was on Monica, in uniform with his superior officer reporting to Aldona Anisomovna and Isabela Bardesano. Mesan Executives who have a proven history of working with the Sector Governor in attempts to destabilize the Talbott Constitutional Convention and plebiscite. This is verified by the testimony of President Roberto Tyler of the Republic of Monica. Something he admits himself under oath. Following the orders of his Solarian Superiors.

result Damn corrupt Frontier Security pricks at it again. No bad press for Manticore. As for him he was under orders.

Fact 2) He has testified that he was recruited by Bardesano after someone assassinated his superior and tried to assassinate him. He then went about attempting to destabilize a number of Sollie shell and protectorate systems while blaming Manticore. He was in fact captured doing this very thing.

result Someone on Mesa was trying to destabilize the verge and shell and blaming it on Manticore. Sleazy slaver bastards are up to something. Maybe there is something to what this new Grand Alliance has been saying all along.

Is this going to happen across the board? Not a chance. It will however weaken her attempts to frame Manticore for "atrocities." Especially when he testifies that he can confirm Isabela Bardesano died in the underground explosion of her super secret research center in the Green Pines attack. The simple fact that that facility existed and he had been there will again deal a blow to the alignment's plans.

Recall that the Alignment's plan was to have the League reconstitute itself around the Factor and she is supposed to be blackening Manticore and shattering the League so that can happen. If she sticks herself too far out there she will end up discrediting herself. Like I said, she's not going to go too far in attacking him. Remember, he knows about how fast their couriers travel and can testify to that as well. IE) I boarded ship at Loomis on such and such date and arrived in Swallow on such and such date. Wow, that's much faster than anything we have or anyone else has. Another breadcrumb is dropped.

Rather than getting as large a chunk of the League as the Alignment expects its going to end up with a lot more fragments than they ever expected. On top of that the Grand Alliance's reputation isn't going to be as badly blackened as they want. I'm thinking that Beowulf is going to gain several systems as the league falls apart. Especially if there is any reason to suspect that whatever atrocity the Alignment has planned for them leaks or is even partially deflected.

It won't be as good as Manticore and the GA hopes but it will not be as bad as the Alignment hopes either. Lets not forget that when Maya stomps on the rebellions in their part of the verge and then recruits them into their new polity Mesa ends up with a giant Alliance much bigger than they ever expected.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:24 pm

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BrightSoul wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:First she needs to find out he's in Manty custody. The Manties might be able to keep that secret.

Once that happens turning it against the Manties is simple. She'll discover evidence that DH was involved in various terrorist attacks that killed a whole lot of civilians. She'll interview some people who lost family members who just really want to see this horrible mass murderer brought to justice. She'll give glowing coverage about how the Manties caught the man behind these horrific attacks and ask the Manties when he'll face trial for his horrible, horrible crimes.

O'Hanrahan at no point distorts the facts. She actually gives the Manties good coverage on this! Theoretically another reporter could do it too, but O'Hanrahan has some good "sources".

The Manties can dodge or delay, but they ultimately have a few options:

1) They say he won't face trial. The people who lost family are unbelievably angry. She, or any other reporter looking for an easy scoop, can get as much footage as she wants from grieving widows, grieving parents who lost kids, etc. who are absolutely furious. Kornati demands he be handed over to their local court system for trial and execution. O'Hanrahan can leave it to the opposition parties and other newsies to do the spin.

2) They set a trial date for his various horrific crimes. Evidence is overwhelming and all signs point to him being executed. O'Hanrahan gives Manticore some good coverage, which just goes to show she's in no way biased against Manticore!

How do you think the Treecats will respond to that? I'm guessing the murder of everyone willing to prosecute or testify against DH.

3) Split the difference and give him a deal for life in prison. This might work! But it could also just anger grieving families who want him dead, AND Treecats who don't want a fellow Treecat essentially imprisoned, or cut off from his companion.


Indeed, how so? If her goal is to blacken the Manties how does she spin the facts?

Fact 1) He's a Sollie Gendarme who was on Monica, in uniform with his superior officer reporting to Aldona Anisomovna and Isabela Bardesano. Mesan Executives who have a proven history of working with the Sector Governor in attempts to destabilize the Talbott Constitutional Convention and plebiscite. This is verified by the testimony of President Roberto Tyler of the Republic of Monica. Something he admits himself under oath. Following the orders of his Solarian Superiors.

result Damn corrupt Frontier Security pricks at it again. No bad press for Manticore. As for him he was under orders.

Fact 2) He has testified that he was recruited by Bardesano after someone assassinated his superior and tried to assassinate him. He then went about attempting to destabilize a number of Sollie shell and protectorate systems while blaming Manticore. He was in fact captured doing this very thing.

result Someone on Mesa was trying to destabilize the verge and shell and blaming it on Manticore. Sleazy slaver bastards are up to something. Maybe there is something to what this new Grand Alliance has been saying all along.

Is this going to happen across the board? Not a chance. It will however weaken her attempts to frame Manticore for "atrocities." Especially when he testifies that he can confirm Isabela Bardesano died in the underground explosion of her super secret research center in the Green Pines attack. The simple fact that that facility existed and he had been there will again deal a blow to the alignment's plans.

Recall that the Alignment's plan was to have the League reconstitute itself around the Factor and she is supposed to be blackening Manticore and shattering the League so that can happen. If she sticks herself too far out there she will end up discrediting herself. Like I said, she's not going to go too far in attacking him. Remember, he knows about how fast their couriers travel and can testify to that as well. IE) I boarded ship at Loomis on such and such date and arrived in Swallow on such and such date. Wow, that's much faster than anything we have or anyone else has. Another breadcrumb is dropped.

Rather than getting as large a chunk of the League as the Alignment expects its going to end up with a lot more fragments than they ever expected. On top of that the Grand Alliance's reputation isn't going to be as badly blackened as they want. I'm thinking that Beowulf is going to gain several systems as the league falls apart. Especially if there is any reason to suspect that whatever atrocity the Alignment has planned for them leaks or is even partially deflected.

It won't be as good as Manticore and the GA hopes but it will not be as bad as the Alignment hopes either. Lets not forget that when Maya stomps on the rebellions in their part of the verge and then recruits them into their new polity Mesa ends up with a giant Alliance much bigger than they ever expected.


At this point it is pure "blue sky." In other words, guesses. There will be people upset about Harahap but it looks like Manticore fulfilled his promises. People died but they got to be free.

He promised Manticore would help and since they came in he is more or less clear.

Mesa won't be filing charges against him. Basically they're under Mantie control

The Grand Alliance would have some charges but he would be far more valuable free, particularly after his adoption. I could even see him on Torch.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:25 am

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ldwechsler wrote:The Grand Alliance would have some charges but he would be far more valuable free, particularly after his adoption. I could even see him on Torch.

The issue is the Grand Alliance isn't a single monolithic entity. It is made up of people. Some of which had their family members murdered by DH and his Terrorist buddies. Depending on the Kornati/Manticore legal system its entirely possible that the Kornati government can charge D.H. and there won't be jack shit anyone outside the planetary government can do!

New Tuscany might accuse him of being in on the Giselle plot as well.
BrightSoul wrote:Indeed, how so? If her goal is to blacken the Manties how does she spin the facts?
To start with, the goal is to blacken Manticore AND the Sollies. Now how does she do that?

She starts with writing a glowing article about how the Manties captured this horrible, horrible mass murdering man, and made the galaxy a better place. She brings up facts which point to the Sollies and Mesans as masterminds. She interviews the families of his victims and gets them to talk about how glad they are that D.H. will finally face justice. She gets a montage of people cheering DH's capture and talking about how glad they'll be when DH is in hell.

Now Manticore needs to decide what to do. Depending on how they set up the legal system, its entirely possible this decision will be made at the Kornati or Karlovac level. In which case DH is probably pretty dead. Even if the Manticore level government gets to decide they have a nasty Catch-22.

Any punishment leveled on DH, is effectively leveled on his furry friend, and therefore risks damaging Manticore's reputation among Treecats.

However, any leniency they show will be the perfect ammunition for all sorts of attacks on the current Manty government. Failure to execute DH "shows" that Manticore doesn't value the lives of the people in the Talbot cluster all that much. Manticore executes pirates and slavers just fine. Why not this terrorist? Then the conspiracy theories should start to crop up naturally, and even worse, they'll probably be a lot more plausible than the zany Malign conspiracy theory the Manticorian government is pushing.

Of course, Manticore might avoid the issue entirely by covering up their capture of Firebrand or by letting him flee before the legal system sends out warrants for his arest. They might also manage to make both sides happy with something like life in prison for DH.

And best of all: This will damage the Solly rep AND bolster O'Hanrahan's reputation for impartiality.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by BrightSoul   » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:10 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:The Grand Alliance would have some charges but he would be far more valuable free, particularly after his adoption. I could even see him on Torch.

The issue is the Grand Alliance isn't a single monolithic entity. It is made up of people. Some of which had their family members murdered by DH and his Terrorist buddies. Depending on the Kornati/Manticore legal system its entirely possible that the Kornati government can charge D.H. and there won't be jack shit anyone outside the planetary government can do!

New Tuscany might accuse him of being in on the Giselle plot as well.
BrightSoul wrote:Indeed, how so? If her goal is to blacken the Manties how does she spin the facts?
To start with, the goal is to blacken Manticore AND the Sollies. Now how does she do that?

She starts with writing a glowing article about how the Manties captured this horrible, horrible mass murdering man, and made the galaxy a better place. She brings up facts which point to the Sollies and Mesans as masterminds. She interviews the families of his victims and gets them to talk about how glad they are that D.H. will finally face justice. She gets a montage of people cheering DH's capture and talking about how glad they'll be when DH is in hell.

Now Manticore needs to decide what to do. Depending on how they set up the legal system, its entirely possible this decision will be made at the Kornati or Karlovac level. In which case DH is probably pretty dead. Even if the Manticore level government gets to decide they have a nasty Catch-22.

Any punishment leveled on DH, is effectively leveled on his furry friend, and therefore risks damaging Manticore's reputation among Treecats.

However, any leniency they show will be the perfect ammunition for all sorts of attacks on the current Manty government. Failure to execute DH "shows" that Manticore doesn't value the lives of the people in the Talbot cluster all that much. Manticore executes pirates and slavers just fine. Why not this terrorist? Then the conspiracy theories should start to crop up naturally, and even worse, they'll probably be a lot more plausible than the zany Malign conspiracy theory the Manticorian government is pushing.

Of course, Manticore might avoid the issue entirely by covering up their capture of Firebrand or by letting him flee before the legal system sends out warrants for his arest. They might also manage to make both sides happy with something like life in prison for DH.

And best of all: This will damage the Solly rep AND bolster O'Hanrahan's reputation for impartiality.


You are still missing my point. She would be stupid to expose herself to questioning.

What crimes is he guilty of?

Smuggling arms to a "resistance fighter". Still not a capital offence.

Claiming to be a representative of a cluster-wide resistance group? Again, a capital offence? Not quite. If that was the case there'd be quite a few western arms manufacturers IRL who would be up for the chop.

All you can say is that you captured a spy, agent provocateur, and smuggler. In fact the only place where he has actually pulled the trigger is Seraphim where he helped liberate the planet from their transtellar oppressors.

If she tries stirring this pot in the way you suggest everyone in the Alliance, Civilian and Government alike are going to wonder why the woman who has already claimed that Henke was guilty of detonating 30 nukes of varying yields on among other locations a nature park. She can't risk even more people wondering what changed to make a known to be fair reporter to be running with your incredibly tenuous claims about Harahap's actions.

Even worse will be if she uses the Alignment's knowledge of his operations in the shell and verge to support her stories. That would lead to Pat Givens (or even worse SLN's internal security organizations) asking HOW SHE KNEW SUCH DETAILS?

At this point I hope she's listening to you since it would inevitably lead to the end of her career.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:47 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Once that happens turning it against the Manties is simple. She'll discover evidence that DH was involved in various terrorist attacks that killed a whole lot of civilians. She'll interview some people who lost family members who just really want to see this horrible mass murderer brought to justice. She'll give glowing coverage about how the Manties caught the man behind these horrific attacks and ask the Manties when he'll face trial for his horrible, horrible crimes.

O'Hanrahan at no point distorts the facts. She actually gives the Manties good coverage on this! Theoretically another reporter could do it too, but O'Hanrahan has some good "sources".

Most of this is nonsense. By the time, the info on Harahap comes out, she will be in the midst of her lies about the attack on Mesa. Remember, she knows she is lieing. There is no doubt about it. She is described missiles descending when they are not. So she may have some 'splaining to do.' And I would guess that a lot of attention will be paid to her by intelligence agents for the Grand Alliance. Victor Cachat is very, very good at that. And he just might have someone with a treecat present.

On top of that, Harahap IS connected, at least to some degree, to the onion. He might not know all the secrets but we know he has figured out more than a little bit. Combine his knowledge with that of Anton and Victor and he could be dangerous. Keep in mind Harahap might know some interesting things about O'Hanrahan. I know that she is far deeper in the onion but he's not supposed to know much at all...and he doesn't seem to have any of those special suicide protocols.


The Manties can dodge or delay, but they ultimately have a few options:

1) They say he won't face trial. The people who lost family are unbelievably angry. She, or any other reporter looking for an easy scoop, can get as much footage as she wants from grieving widows, grieving parents who lost kids, etc. who are absolutely furious. Kornati demands he be handed over to their local court system for trial and execution. O'Hanrahan can leave it to the opposition parties and other newsies to do the spin.

2) They set a trial date for his various horrific crimes. Evidence is overwhelming and all signs point to him being executed. O'Hanrahan gives Manticore some good coverage, which just goes to show she's in no way biased against Manticore!

How do you think the Treecats will respond to that? I'm guessing the murder of everyone willing to prosecute or testify against DH.

3) Split the difference and give him a deal for life in prison. This might work! But it could also just anger grieving families who want him dead, AND Treecats who don't want a fellow Treecat essentially imprisoned, or cut off from his companion.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by BrightSoul   » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:48 pm

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His only crime is smuggling. Not a capital offence. End of line. If she tries to force a confrontation over his actions to force some form of retribution, IE inflames public opinion through sensationalized stories, she risks exposure. Like I've said many times, she'll stay out of it. She's best off letting the Manties internal opposition parties to try it but not her. At best she gets the Manty intelligence groups to keep him "locked up" but working for them.

There is very little more than that anyone can achieve. Inflamatory article is written to attempt to force a trial. Queen's bench hands down decision to try him for his smuggling, he gets commuted sentence so long as he remains in custody of ONI and SIS. On Kornati people are satisfied as they still want Agnes Nordbrandt more than him, after all she was bombing them long before he ever supplied her with weapons.

Of all the reporters out there she can't risk discrediting herself. Focus on the Mesan occupation and the Mantie's actions in supporting rebels in the Verge and Shell as well as their ties to the Ballroom, yes. Try to make hay out of this? No. Let someone else take the lead on it.

Lets keep in mind that she likely knows more than she should about Harahap's actions, if she doesn't her control does. If even a hint of that knowledge leaks she is done.

Why can't anyone see this? Is it the climate of today's assault on our own institutions like the press and FBI?

One of the other things I'm wondering about is if Isabela's replacement will be IDed? Maybe even where he was active prior to taking over for her? What can Pat Givens and the GA intelligence teams do with that info?
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by ywing14   » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:20 pm

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BrightSoul wrote:His only crime is smuggling. Not a capital offence. End of line. If she tries to force a confrontation over his actions to force some form of retribution, IE inflames public opinion through sensationalized stories, she risks exposure. Like I've said many times, she'll stay out of it. She's best off letting the Manties internal opposition parties to try it but not her. At best she gets the Manty intelligence groups to keep him "locked up" but working for them.

There is very little more than that anyone can achieve. Inflamatory article is written to attempt to force a trial. Queen's bench hands down decision to try him for his smuggling, he gets commuted sentence so long as he remains in custody of ONI and SIS. On Kornati people are satisfied as they still want Agnes Nordbrandt more than him, after all she was bombing them long before he ever supplied her with weapons.

Of all the reporters out there she can't risk discrediting herself. Focus on the Mesan occupation and the Mantie's actions in supporting rebels in the Verge and Shell as well as their ties to the Ballroom, yes. Try to make hay out of this? No. Let someone else take the lead on it.

Lets keep in mind that she likely knows more than she should about Harahap's actions, if she doesn't her control does. If even a hint of that knowledge leaks she is done.

Why can't anyone see this? Is it the climate of today's assault on our own institutions like the press and FBI?

One of the other things I'm wondering about is if Isabela's replacement will be IDed? Maybe even where he was active prior to taking over for her? What can Pat Givens and the GA intelligence teams do with that info?


I am confused, his only crime is most certainly not smuggling. Under the US system he would be guilty of a plethora of counts of providing material support to terrorism along with a plethora of counts of conspiracy to provide material support to terrorism. If it results in death the maximum sentence is life in prison. He'd be looking at a long time in prison.

However, O'Hanrahan won't get involved because his capture isn't a big story. Not when it "appears the Manties" just set off all those explosions all over Mesa which killed a lot of people.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:30 am

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BrightSoul wrote:His only crime is smuggling. Not a capital offence. End of line. If she tries to force a confrontation over his actions to force some form of retribution, IE inflames public opinion through sensationalized stories, she risks exposure. Like I've said many times, she'll stay out of it. She's best off letting the Manties internal opposition parties to try it but not her. At best she gets the Manty intelligence groups to keep him "locked up" but working for them.

There is very little more than that anyone can achieve. Inflamatory article is written to attempt to force a trial. Queen's bench hands down decision to try him for his smuggling, he gets commuted sentence so long as he remains in custody of ONI and SIS. On Kornati people are satisfied as they still want Agnes Nordbrandt more than him, after all she was bombing them long before he ever supplied her with weapons.

Of all the reporters out there she can't risk discrediting herself. Focus on the Mesan occupation and the Mantie's actions in supporting rebels in the Verge and Shell as well as their ties to the Ballroom, yes. Try to make hay out of this? No. Let someone else take the lead on it.

Lets keep in mind that she likely knows more than she should about Harahap's actions, if she doesn't her control does. If even a hint of that knowledge leaks she is done.


As far as I can tell, she knows nothing about Harahap. If she knows anything about Janus it's because she's highly intelligent, knows the MAlign's objectives and is quite capable of putting 2 + pi + i together to get 5.

She does not have a control, and if she did, that person would know no more than she does. In fact, probably less. Besides, ce's probably still back on Earth.

BrightSoul wrote:Why can't anyone see this? Is it the climate of today's assault on our own institutions like the press and FBI?

One of the other things I'm wondering about is if Isabela's replacement will be IDed? Maybe even where he was active prior to taking over for her? What can Pat Givens and the GA intelligence teams do with that info?


If you're talking about Isabel Bardisano, Harahap has already told them about both Rufino C. and Colin Detweiller, and has said he considers Colin possibly the Intelligence director.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:11 am

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(I snipped the previous post down to this one point)

JohnRoth wrote:
BrightSoul wrote:One of the other things I'm wondering about is if Isabela's replacement will be IDed? Maybe even where he was active prior to taking over for her? What can Pat Givens and the GA intelligence teams do with that info?


If you're talking about Isabel Bardisano, Harahap has already told them about both Rufino C. and Colin Detweiller, and has said he considers Colin possibly the Intelligence director.


While he does know that Rufino was Isabel's replacement (at least as far as Janus was concerned), I don't believe he knows Colin's name; he does know he was debriefed by an individual who claimed to be Isabel's boss (and was still recovering from bad injuries).
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:23 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:(I snipped the previous post down to this one point)

BrightSoul wrote:One of the other things I'm wondering about is if Isabela's replacement will be IDed? Maybe even where he was active prior to taking over for her? What can Pat Givens and the GA intelligence teams do with that info?


JohnRoth wrote:If you're talking about Isabel Bardisano, Harahap has already told them about both Rufino C. and Colin Detweiller, and has said he considers Colin possibly the Intelligence director.


While he does know that Rufino was Isabel's replacement (at least as far as Janus was concerned), I don't believe he knows Colin's name; he does know he was debriefed by an individual who claimed to be Isabel's boss (and was still recovering from bad injuries).


That could well be. I'm pretty sure I heard it, but I'm not going to go watch the video again to verify that.
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