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Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?

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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon May 02, 2016 4:03 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:I don't have time to scan through all the good answers to find perhaps some of my own. So perhaps I am repeating myself which is not good. Is there a way to collect all my threads here?

The Sollies will roll over the Grand Alliance in less than 5 years. There will be no Empire of Manticore. Once the Sollie new design new construction hits it is all over. Compare this with 1941.

Actually early 1942. The USA crushed the third (3rd) largest modern navy in less than 4 years. The Japanese had no chance. Compare the Japanese Navy to the Grand Alliance Navy. Yikes indeed.

The GA will run wild for about one year. All the Sollies have to do is play very non fair. Find and destroy Bolt Hole. Just destroy the GAs ability to build, move, find and exploit. Easy to do?

Quantity has a quality of it own. Russian front. David Weber may have painted himself into a literary corner with this. Easy to hand wave. The Sollies are that sleeping giant. The GA will be crushed. Oh boy.

And do not forget the evil intent and proven track record of the Mesans. Kinetic strikes on populated GA planets? Yep!


New Sollie production requires shipyards--which will have been turned into scrap early on. They'll have to build new, hidden shipyards before they can actually build new stuff. They're decades behind on R&D and that's not an area where 9 women and a month works.

I don't understand your point about quantity. While the Sollies have more total hulls they're vastly inferior in meaningful firepower. Gather both sides' fleets and let them duke it out--the GA will simply need to replenish magazines, the SLN will be gone.

Kinetic strikes against GA planets are a possibility--but remember the Eridani Edict. While the SLN is the traditional enforcer because of their 1000# gorilla status the GA certainly could enforce. I think they would be better off not doing so the first time, though--show up at Sol, wipe the defenders and announce that according to the Eridani Edict they should open fire on the planet. However, since they are aware that the Solarians are operating at the behest of the MA that this time they're not going to shoot but that the people had better take back their nation before there's another incident.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by pnakasone   » Mon May 02, 2016 6:09 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:I don't have time to scan through all the good answers to find perhaps some of my own. So perhaps I am repeating myself which is not good. Is there a way to collect all my threads here?

The Sollies will roll over the Grand Alliance in less than 5 years. There will be no Empire of Manticore. Once the Sollie new design new construction hits it is all over. Compare this with 1941.

Actually early 1942. The USA crushed the third (3rd) largest modern navy in less than 4 years. The Japanese had no chance. Compare the Japanese Navy to the Grand Alliance Navy. Yikes indeed.

The GA will run wild for about one year. All the Sollies have to do is play very non fair. Find and destroy Bolt Hole. Just destroy the GAs ability to build, move, find and exploit. Easy to do?

Quantity has a quality of it own. Russian front. David Weber may have painted himself into a literary corner with this. Easy to hand wave. The Sollies are that sleeping giant. The GA will be crushed. Oh boy.

And do not forget the evil intent and proven track record of the Mesans. Kinetic strikes on populated GA planets? Yep!


You assuming the SL will still be around in 5-10 years. The GA understands that if the SL holds together they are in deep trouble. The GA has the ability to destroy the infrastructure of the Sl but has no real ability to take and hold territory to prevent them from rebuilding or doing a bolthole. The Harrington doctrine that GA is following calls for breaking up Sl into smaller successor states that they can have mutual deference and trade treaties with. Most members worlds (if not all)of the Sl are loyal to themselves first and the SL a distant second.

Lets add one detail calling the Sl a kleptocracy is a mild term to the level of corruption in its government.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by HB of CJ   » Mon May 02, 2016 7:36 pm

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How many shipyards does the GA have in total? How many can they construct? Kinda like needing to have something to have something needed to build more of what you need. Starting from nothing.

How many shipyards CAN the Sollies build? The same statement above does apply. The answer is AS MANY AS THEY WANT! The GA simply does NOT have enough necessary people or planets.

They also do not right now have enough ordnance. Not enough missiles. Not enough anything. How many industrialized Sollie planets are there? How much of everything could EACH provide?

The GA also does not have enough trained personnel ... NOR the population base to find and train more. The Sollies, while right now also short handed, do not have that expansion problem.

Imagine what will happen if EACH industrialized Sollie PLANET constructs just 100 ship slips each. Consider what will happen if each populated planet trains ONLY ONE million people?

Impossible? Nope. The USA did MORE than this all by themselves in World War Two. Just ONE rural kinda industrial nation. Caught flat footed. Only had a small Navy buildup at the time.

Quantity has a Quality of its own. Now add in asymmetrical warfare provided by the Mesans and there you have it. The Sollies will overwhelm the Grant (edit: Grand) Alliance. Might take 5 years. Yikes!

So ... the war is over and now what? The Grand Alliance will look like Japan after World War Two. Not one brick on top of another. The Grand Alliance is going to lose this one so bad. More Yikes!
Last edited by HB of CJ on Mon May 02, 2016 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon May 02, 2016 8:04 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:Impossible? Nope. The USA did MORE than this all by themselves in World War Two. Just ONE rural kinda industrial nation. Caught flat footed. Only had a small Navy buildup at the time.


The Solarian League is more like the League Of Nations than the USA Ca WWII. That's the flaw in your argument. IF the Solarian League holds together, you'll look like Nostradamus, but as it is you look like the "Psychic Friends Network." :)

Another R/W comparison would be the USSR and Warsaw Pact -- Where are they today now that the "West" has won the economic war and brought former members of the Warsaw Pact into NATO?

The GA doesn't need to lay waste to SL Members it just needs to fend off the SLN long enough for the league to fall apart. The MAlign will be helping the League to fall apart, as well as political and economic pressure from the GA, seceding league systems, rebellion in the Verge, and Neutrals looking for their piece of the pie.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon May 02, 2016 8:32 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:Imagine what will happen if EACH industrialized Sollie PLANET constructs just 100 ship slips each. Consider what will happen if each populated planet trains ONLY ONE million people?

Impossible? Nope. The USA did MORE than this all by themselves in World War Two. Just ONE rural kinda industrial nation. Caught flat footed. Only had a small Navy buildup at the time.

Quantity has a Quality of its own. Now add in asymmetrical warfare provided by the Mesans and there you have it. The Sollies will overwhelm the Grant Alliance. Might take 5 years. Yikes!
The US was pretty industrialized (despite widespread unemployment and underemployment in the '30s) and was spinning up towards a war footing a few years before Pearl Harbor.

But still, yes, if the League held together and went on a war footing their industry, once a couple cycles of building tools to build factories to build weapons, and manpower could swamp the GA.

But the weak central goverment specifically doesn't have any mechanism to compel member planets to fund naval expansion, to provide or conscript sailors to man the navy, nor to build up their own self-defense forces. And the GA didn't attack the League, the League's centeral government and naval forces (ineffectively) attacked the GA over and over again.

Some core planets may rally round the flag anyway; but for many that were happy enough sticking around while the going was good are going to look at the economic and human costs of gearing up and fighting the biggest, widest ranging, war the galaxy has ever seen and look to step aside. They can quite reasonably point out that this is the "League of Nation's" screw-up and they have no moral or constitutional duty to help dig them out.

And we know the GA will be more than happy to sign a separate peace, and resume trade, with anybody willing to dump the corrupt and self-service central government and declare themselves independent.


The costs of independence (especially if Beowulf starts a trend of doing so) are far less than the costs of war. IOW I think the Harrington plan is more or less going to work - there will obviously be some hiccups, but mostly I think the League is as rotten as RFC has been hinting it is.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Sigs   » Mon May 02, 2016 8:57 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:The USN in 1942 had a problem with force projection. It took awhile to get their act together. The IJN did a great job of force projection and superiority, (long enough) at Pearl Harbor.

They could have hung around for a week. They did not. Fortunately.

Do not forget the evil Mesans. Wonder if they will blab Bolt Hole stuff to the Sollies ... all sub rosa. The Japanese Navy did fine concentrating. The USN could but didn't for almost 1 year.

Midway was a fluke. "Do we eat better than the Japanese?"

Do not underestimate the evil ability of the Mesans to do dirty deeds. Seems they already did it once to Manticore. Why not also to it to everybody then blame everybody? Things look bad for the GA.

The GA will awaken the Sollie sleeping giant. Yikes indeed!


Once again, the major difference is that the US had its major shipbuilding and industrial power well away from the Japanese. The GA has a base in the core of the League which means that each and every shipyard, industrial complex etc... can be turned into very, very, very small debris and the League can do absolutely nothing about it.



Another thing, the US did not really have the great risk of states declaring independence and calling neutrality, there is no comparission between the loyalty Americans feel for their nation and Solarians feel for the League.

The League is more like a heavily armed united nations with a little more teeth, few nations if any place the UN's wellbeing and survival above that of their own and how many people will place the wellbeing of their system above the wellbeing of the league especially when it becomes obvious that the League is done?

The SLN needs its remaining SD's to keep a lid on their more rebellious systems, they wont be able to send any ships to bolthole even if the MA managed to slip them the coordinates. And if they did, I doubt that Bolthole was left defenceless or the GA learned nothing from the attacks on the Manticorean Home system and Grayson's home system, they have worked on a way to prevent this from being repeated.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Bill Woods   » Mon May 02, 2016 9:00 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
HB of CJ wrote:Impossible? Nope. The USA did MORE than this all by themselves in World War Two. Just ONE rural kinda industrial nation. Caught flat footed. Only had a small Navy buildup at the time.


The Solarian League is more like the League Of Nations than the USA Ca WWII. That's the flaw in your argument. IF the Solarian League holds together, you'll look like Nostradamus, but as it is you look like the "Psychic Friends Network." :)

Another R/W comparison would be the USSR and Warsaw Pact -- Where are they today now that the "West" has won the economic war and brought former members of the Warsaw Pact into NATO?

The GA doesn't need to lay waste to SL Members it just needs to fend off the SLN long enough for the league to fall apart. The MAlign will be helping the League to fall apart, as well as political and economic pressure from the GA, seceding league systems, rebellion in the Verge, and Neutrals looking for their piece of the pie.
The GA needs to be considerably more proactive than just sitting back and hoping the League will fall apart. But they know that, and that they don't have all that much time.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by darrell   » Mon May 02, 2016 9:13 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:How many shipyards does the GA have in total? How many can they construct? Kinda like needing to have something to have something needed to build more of what you need. Starting from nothing.

How many shipyards CAN the Sollies build? The same statement above does apply. The answer is AS MANY AS THEY WANT! The GA simply does NOT have enough necessary people or planets.

They also do not right now have enough ordnance. Not enough missiles. Not enough anything. How many industrialized Sollie planets are there? How much of everything could EACH provide?

The GA also does not have enough trained personnel ... NOR the population base to find and train more. The Sollies, while right now also short handed, do not have that expansion problem.

Imagine what will happen if EACH industrialized Sollie PLANET constructs just 100 ship slips each. Consider what will happen if each populated planet trains ONLY ONE million people?

Impossible? Nope. The USA did MORE than this all by themselves in World War Two. Just ONE rural kinda industrial nation. Caught flat footed. Only had a small Navy buildup at the time.

Quantity has a Quality of its own. Now add in asymmetrical warfare provided by the Mesans and there you have it. The Sollies will overwhelm the Grant Alliance. Might take 5 years. Yikes!

So ... the war is over and now what? The Grand Alliance will look like Japan after World War Two. Not one brick on top of another. The Grand Alliance is going to lose this one so bad. More Yikes!


Currently haven out builds the SL in warships by 10 to 1. You can't use japan and the USA during WW2 as comparisons.

Japan had maxed out their shipbuilding, and before the war concentrated on warships. The GA hasen't come close to maximizing it's capacity. Haven has more than 100 planets and less than a dozen shipyards, they can easily increase their shipbuilding 10 fold. With talbot and silesea, the SEM can easily increase their shipbuilding 10 fold, if not more.

next, you continue to ignore the 75 year tech imbalance. The GA has CLAC's, MDM's, and apollo.

If japan has aircraft and aircraft carriers, along with battleships with 16" guns, not to mention radar, there is no way that the US can win if the best that they can field is battleships with 8" guns, even at 100 to 1 odds. (pre ww1)

the biggest flaw is that the USA was UNITED, it had been attacked. It is the GA that has been attacked and it is much more united than the SL.

IF AND ONLY IF the SL hangs togeather, in 10-20 years the SL could win, but not much faster. Since Beowulf will be gone from the leage in 2 months, her daughter colonies will quit shortly thereafter, along with mesa's hidden colonies and the maya sector. I don't thing the SL can last more than about another year.

As far as the GA, Manticore has many millions of pods. That will be enough to defend against the SL until they can get their missile capacity back into production. (2.5 million in the home system alone)
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Mon May 02, 2016 9:33 pm

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Heh, and in the hour and a half I took to write this post, I got ninja'd no less than five times. Oh well, I wrote this and darnit I'll post it!

HB of CJ wrote:...The Sollies will overwhelm the Grant Alliance. Might take 5 years. Yikes!

So ... the war is over and now what? The Grand Alliance will look like Japan after World War Two. Not one brick on top of another. The Grand Alliance is going to lose this one so bad. More Yikes!


While it would take longer than 5 years just due to the requirements of weapons research time, shipyard construction time, and warship construction time, in the long run you are, as has been noted several times by characters in the story, correct. In a stand-up fight the GA is doomed, no matter how many solly fleets or shipyards they destroy or solly planets they occupy. Eventually the sollies will acquire weapons tech close enough to the GA's for their quantity advantage to make up the remaining quality gap, and at that point the GA is screwed.

However, I think you're forgetting that the characters in-universe *know that*, and they're not stupid. They aren't going to blindly continue down this path that they *know* is doomed. That's the *entire point* of the Harrington plan - if the League would inevitably run over the GA in a decade's time, then the way to win is to ensure that the league *no longer exists* by the time that rolls around. And they have the ability to do that.

And that's the critical difference between your WWII analogy and the situation in the story. In WWII the Japanese *were* indeed ultimately screwed, because they had no realistic way to prevent the US from bringing its massive industrial and resource advantage to bear. As you quite reasonably point out, there's jack all you can do when your enemy is outproducing you several dozen times over and has a quality even within shouting distance of yours (and the US quality was arguably *better* than the Japanese in most areas after the war's early stages, to boot). However, the sollies are not the US. They have the same sort of huge potential resource and industrial superiority, but the situations are massively different in all other areas.

For starters, the US and Japan started the war with broadly similar warfighting capabilities. The Japanese had advantages in several important areas, for sure, and they leveraged those advantages to very good effect during the war's early stages, but the US was still within shouting distance even in those areas and was *ahead* in others. The same is most emphatically *not* the case with the sollies and the GA! The Japanese started the war with 12 fleet/light carriers, and produced another 7 during the war. The US, meanwhile, started with 8 fleet/light carriers and produced 26 more during the war. So, if you count total numbers it was 19 for the Japanese and 32 for the US (1.7 to 1), or if you count wartime production it was 7 and 26 (3.7 to 1). Either way, the US quality was close enough to the Japanese that their numbers advantage was decisive (even ignoring that the American carriers were arguably better by the end of the war). Meanwhile, the GA commanders would *laugh* at 4:1 odds - heck, in terms of weight of metal the battle of Spindle saw 5.8 megatons of Sag-Cs blow *156* megatons of Scientists (27:1!) to smithereens in a single salvo! The Americans could at least stay within shouting distance of the Japanese until their production advantage could equalize the odds, but the solly fleets are literally nothing but targets and will remain so for at least 5 years.

Second, the Japanese could do essentially nothing to attack the US industrial base, and so couldn't hinder the US buildup. Meanwhile, while the GA certainly can't hope to *prevent* the sollies from eventually closing the tech gap and bringing their resource advantage to bear, they sure as hell can slow it down since they (unlike the Japanese) can easily project power wherever they feel like within their enemy's territory. Having your shipyards and research infrastructure completely unmolested makes it a heck of a lot easier to close the gap on your enemy.

And third, and most importantly, the sollies are a hell of a lot less cohesive than the US. The previous two make it harder for the sollies to catch up, but alone they couldn't stop it from happening eventually. This, though, building on the previous two, is what allows for the possibility of the GA's victory. The Japanese could not break the US, and so ultimately the Japanese could not defeat the US. The sollies, though, are a collection of over-civilized, over-soft core worlds with little resolve or overriding loyalty and a whole ton of mostly-subjugated peons with *no* loyalty whatsoever, whose fleets cannot meet *any* quantity of GA ships in battle, and whose defenseless territory is wide open to attack. The idea of the US disintegrating during WWII without ever even being physically attacked is laughable. The idea of the sollies *not* disintegrating under such intense, sustained pressure is equally laughable.

It would require a sustained, concentrated effort on the part of the league for its resource and industrial advantage to actually beat the GA. However, the entire point of the Harrington plan is that the Sollies *will not remain intact* long enough to muster that sustained effort. By the time that they could do the research to close the enormous quality gap enough to allow quantity to tip the balance *and* build ships with the benefits of that research, there won't *be* a solarian league, at least in the sense of a single cohesive entity that actually retains the resource and industrial advantage required to beat the GA.

To make a long story short, right now the sollies are so insanely outclassed in quality that no amount of quantity can make up for it, and by the time they can close the quality gap, they won't have the quantity anymore.
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Re: Congratulations! The war is over! Now what?
Post by Sigs   » Mon May 02, 2016 9:36 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:How many shipyards does the GA have in total? How many can they construct? Kinda like needing to have something to have something needed to build more of what you need. Starting from nothing.


They have all the Yards that Haven has, they will rebuild as fast as possible at least a minimum of Manticore's yards. What's more even though the Andermani are not part of the GA their yards might be counted into the total since they are basically a silent party.

The GA has plenty of yards that are efficient and pumping out warships on a very frequent basis while the League has few ship yards and they don't have the wartime experience and sense of urgency that the GA has. They will eventually if they survive.

Imagine World War 2 if the IJN had the ability to destroy every single shipyard the US had, if it had the ability to destroy or neutralize every major industrial point and the US military had no chance of stopping them. Now imagine you had 40 states actively trying to get out of the union at the same time that the federal income has been cut by 60%+. Tell me how the US would have survived that scenario?


HB of CJ wrote:How many shipyards CAN the Sollies build? The same statement above does apply. The answer is AS MANY AS THEY WANT! The GA simply does NOT have enough necessary people or planets.


The League can build as many as they want IF they had the money to do so and IF they had the will to do so from their member governments and IF they had something worthy to build and IF the GA lets them build it in the first place.

The GA has the yards and has several hundred to a thousand SD's near completion or working up, the SLN has 1700 deathtraps sorry SD's plus some 8,000 paper weight in reserve.

If it comes to this, the GA can destroy each and every yard the League has and then politely suggest to all League members that it might be easier if they made individual peace with the GA. If the GA manages to corner the bulk of the remaining SLN fleet, they can destroy it or make it surrender and free those systems that want out.


HB of CJ wrote:They also do not right now have enough ordnance. Not enough missiles. Not enough anything. How many industrialized Sollie planets are there? How much of everything could EACH provide?

We keep coming back to the word could. The League COULD build a massive industry to crush the GA IF they had the time and IF the individual League systems surrendered their independence and started working for the central government.

The League has to find funds, and it has to find a way to garner loyalty from it's member states. Those individual systems will be wondering why they should spend money, industrial might and manpower to prop up a corrupt government that cannot even protect.






HB of CJ wrote:The GA also does not have enough trained personnel ... NOR the population base to find and train more. The Sollies, while right now also short handed, do not have that expansion problem.


The GA has all the trained manpower it needs and better still it has the ships to put them in while the League only has flying coffins.



HB of CJ wrote:Imagine what will happen if EACH industrialized Sollie PLANET constructs just 100 ship slips each. Consider what will happen if each populated planet trains ONLY ONE million people?


Why would they build 100 of anything for the League? If anyone is building anything it will be the individual systems to create a fleet for themselves. The League does not have a way to force the member states to provide anything and when it resorts to force to keep systems in the League they will lose whatever loyalty remained for them.


HB of CJ wrote:Quantity has a Quality of its own. Now add in asymmetrical warfare provided by the Mesans and there you have it. The Sollies will overwhelm the Grant Alliance. Might take 5 years. Yikes!


You are speaking as if the MA and the League are allies and they are not. The League, Manticore and Haven are on the same target list, the MA will not allow the league to grow to it's full potential because their plans depend on a weak central government. If I were the leadership of the MA I would prefer a League collapse and GA victory over a GA collapse and a League victory.


HB of CJ wrote:So ... the war is over and now what? The Grand Alliance will look like Japan after World War Two. Not one brick on top of another. The Grand Alliance is going to lose this one so bad. More Yikes!


How would they lose? All of your reasoning depends on a potential and the potential is there but the conditions to take advantage of that potential are not.

There are hundreds of core and shell worlds which are loyal to themselves first and foremost and stayed in the League because it provided security, now that the League cannot provide security at all most of those core and shell systems will start to look for ways to leave the League. And when the League cracks down on Beowulf and any others that try to leave they will likely not be gaining much in the loyalty department... assuming the SLN holds out since the crew's of the ships doing the cracking down will be doing that against their families and homes and under the command of the incompetent buffoons that got them in the predicament in the first place. Keep in mind that the SLN has a lot of Marines from the shell and protectorates that hold no particular loyalty to the League and so do FF and the regular navy.
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