Reserve destruction

We must remember that until the Havenite-Manticoran Wars the SLN reserve was perfectly suitable designs to fight anyone. Manticore was forced to develop new technologies and tactics to deal with the fact that they could not build and deploy ships in the amounts that the People's Republic of Haven could. People's Republic of Haven of course had to develop technologies and tactics to deal with what Manticore was doing.


The rules had changed but no one in the SLN who had the power to make changes paid attention to the memos telling them that if they bothered to read them at all.

One issue is how long would it take the reserve yards to get a ship out of mothballs and ready to fight even with out having to update the ships systems?

How is the Nevada supposed to be so much better that a equal class RMN or even RHN?

The Nevada's are slower. They don't have the speed that current design (or even perhaps the last two full design classes have. That is at least a two fold result. 1 is the Grayson variant of the internal compensators and 2 the node improvements that give them more speed.

The Nevada's have really sucky ECM vs either Haven or Manticore. Sure, they could upgrade their software but they are going to have to do a radical makeover and probably going to have to make hardware changes.

The Nevada's have really sucky CMs (compaired to GA/Grayson and Erwhon + Aldermani) and the tactical communications to go with them. They also don't have very many of them per ship. Sure, they could upgrade the software on the existing CMs in thier inventory BUT adding numbers of tubes (plus magazines and control channels) is going to take some ripping out and rebuilding parts of the ships. Sure, they might be able to make some improvement by replacing the auto-cannon projection weapons but you are still going to have to carve up sections of hull and interiors.

Control of the weapons and defense is also a challenge. There is the little difference that Apollo and FTL communications make in updating said weapons and CMs. It would also appear that RMN and RHN have a lot more capacity to control weapons relative to their various broadsides and so can litteraly stack AND control multiple broadsides vs the SLN capacity. Being able to swamp- with accurate fire- an adversary goes a long way to 1st damaging said adversary (and also probably reduce their number of tubes through damage) and mission kill if not outright destroy the targets faster.

FTL control on the GA & friends weapons, not only is it ever so much faster, the SLN has NOTHING to attempt to jamb it with.

Then there is the real killer, the powered flight engagement envelope of the MDM weapons of the GA- which they can accurately control.

The SLN was the big dog but now they are not. Sure, they can send 10 SDs to most systems in known Human Space and blow away of perhaps 90% of the non-GA systems/politys, but will they? They can do that to most systems with a BC, hell, a modern SLN DD can dominate most systems.

The SLN is litteraly composed of ships that were designed to fight -mostly by using overwheming numbers of ships- using technology that is two wars behind the current generation GA weapons.

Relax wrote:At the time, and to this day, it certainly did/does not jive with the text describing the SL being a backward obsolescent navy when one could argue that the Indefatigueable/Nevada classes with a minor tweak are much superior to anything Haven/Manticore had till the advent of the BC'P/BCL!

You're confusing descriptions of Battle Fleet with descriptions of the entire SLN. There is textev and Word of Weber (tm) that Frontier Fleet is better equipped and better trained than Battle Fleet, although not up to the standards of the RMN, RHN or GSN.

thinkstoomuch wrote:
How long does a SLN CM fly for? We have no idea. Which along with CM RoF may account for the RMN firing multiple waves of CMs and SLN, not. I tried to figure this out for back for OBS near as I figured RMN CMs were powered for less than 45 seconds, more like 30, IIRC, to get a 1,000,000 range.

How many missiles does each class carry?

Actually Duckk posted some numbers on the performance of the 2nd stage of the Cataphract; which is reported to use an SLN CM drive.

That has a shockingly good 98,000g for 75s; or about 2.7 million km. That's better than the numbers of the Mk30 CM that was RMN top of the line as recently as Sidemore (during War of Honor). The Mk 30 was good for 130,000g for 60s; or about 2.3 million km.
(Now that's far below the Mk31s that replaced it; those do 130,000g for 75g; or about 3.6 million km)

The RMN CM during OBS had, if I got my references and math right, 90,500g for 60s; or about 1.6 million km.


Now we've no idea how good the sensor hardware in on the current SLN CM; nor the quality of the software that's parsing the sensor data. But the basic drive is, like their Javelin SDM, quite surprisingly good. Again, not really aligning with the "energy range thinking" we've heard about.

Relax wrote:

cthia wrote:Perhaps you mean jibe with?

Jive refers to dance with coming out of the Jazz scene, while the Jibe is a nautical sailing term to go turn the sail which does not make sense.

Thus, JIVE, is the correct usage, whereas Jibe, does not make sense

Vocabulary.com wrote:jibe
1.
v
shift from one side of the ship to the other
2.
n
an aggressive remark directed at a person like a missile and intended to have a telling effect
3.
v
be compatible, similar or consistent; coincide in their characteristics

It's one of those words with several meanings.

See also here: http://americanenglishdoctor.com/wordpr ... e-and-jibe

Both Meriam-Webster and Garner's call out the error of using jibe for gibe, but neither has an article on jibe vs jive, nor does Brians.

JohnRoth wrote:

Relax wrote:
Jive refers to dance with coming out of the Jazz scene, while the Jibe is a nautical sailing term to go turn the sail which does not make sense.

Thus, JIVE, is the correct usage, whereas Jibe, does not make sense

Vocabulary.com wrote:jibe
1.
v
shift from one side of the ship to the other
2.
n
an aggressive remark directed at a person like a missile and intended to have a telling effect
3.
v
be compatible, similar or consistent; coincide in their characteristics

It's one of those words with several meanings.

See also here: http://americanenglishdoctor.com/wordpr ... e-and-jibe

Both Meriam-Webster and Garner's call out the error of using jibe for gibe, but neither has an article on jibe vs jive, nor does Brians.

So, if you keep reading your link of jibe verses jive which according to you does not exist in your link.... , it is ok according to them to bastardize, one word, jibe(sailing term) which most certainly never used to be used as "to agree with", but not the other, jive even though that word is most used in society and actually means to dance with the music which aligns with "to agree with" unlike jibe or gibe?



At least one of them makes sense, the other does not. I will continue to use logic, instead of stupidity.

JohnRoth wrote:

Relax wrote:Jive refers to dance with coming out of the Jazz scene, while the Jibe is a nautical sailing term to go turn the sail which does not make sense.

Thus, JIVE, is the correct usage, whereas Jibe, does not make sense

Vocabulary.com wrote:jibe
1.
v
shift from one side of the ship to the other
2.
n
an aggressive remark directed at a person like a missile and intended to have a telling effect
3.
v
be compatible, similar or consistent; coincide in their characteristics

It's one of those words with several meanings.

See also here: http://americanenglishdoctor.com/wordpr ... e-and-jibe

Both Meriam-Webster and Garner's call out the error of using jibe for gibe, but neither has an article on jibe vs jive, nor does Brians.

Relax wrote:So, if you keep reading your link of jibe verses jive which according to you does not exist in your link.... , it is ok according to them to bastardize, one word, jibe(sailing term) which most certainly never used to be used as "to agree with", but not the other, jive even though that word is most used in society and actually means to dance with the music which aligns with "to agree with" unlike jibe or gibe?



At least one of them makes sense, the other does not. I will continue to use logic, instead of stupidity.

BUT. In sailing... is to jibe with, agree with, be in accordance with the wind. Wholly intuitive.

Even aircraft carriers can be thought to jibe with the wind, in regard to the direction which affords the most lift to its fighters upon launch -- directly into the wind. (Which is actually more of a tack -- into the wind.) When jibing, you are not just arbitrarily turning the sails. You are adjusting/reacting with the wind.

Point being, it is much more important to agree with the wind than to agree with the music. Failing in the one can get you jived (sneered, laughed) at -- while failure in the other can get you dead.

I suppose that even in the Honorverse you are jibing (rigging sails) with grav waves. Certainly not against. (Not to be confused with tacking -- which can literally be into the wind.)

Websters does list it as... : to be in accordance with, : to agree, as its 3rd definition.


3jibe
verb

jibed jib·ing


Definition of JIBE

intransitive verb


: to be in accord : agree

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jibe

Besides, jiving (dancing) with someone/something does not necessarily imply -- cannot efficiently and appropriately be used to imply : to agree : in accord.

Someone might be doing the watusi (a solo dance) and the other the jive turkey -- completely out of tune and step, discordant. Or the music may be of a moderate tempo but someone's dancing like a lit firecracker is lodged in one's orifice.

You ever seen a black guy dancing with a white girl? Whatever the hell she's doing nobody knows. Their thoughts may be in agreement, but their dancing sure as hell ain't. lol

There was a time when Blacks never could have been convinced that Whites dance with the music, not even to the beat of their own drums -- lest the drummer's drunk. Totally discordant.

Things've gotten much better since SOUUUUUUUL TRAIN! But still.

I'm half Native American -- totally jibing, in tune with the universe. So we can dance if we want to...

Building times

In the discussion of reserves, one thing seems to have been overlooked.
Keeping a reserve of superdreadnoughts, and minimal light ships, does make a sort of sense. Light ships can be built comparatively quickly and in vast quantities compared to the heavy wallers. The USA has used the same logic when dreadnoughts were being built in quantity, but the smaller ships weren’t. First Line capital ship always take years to build. (Unless you steal parts from other ships to expedite, like HMS Dreadnought or GNS Honor Harrington, or have them on hand.)

In that regard, maintaining a reserve fleet of heavy units isn’t foolish, but prudent. The SLN falls down by keeping a poor quality reserve, but a big reserve makes a certain sense.

Speaking of building times, the way the GSN expedited the Honor Harrington by stealing already built parts from the supply chain, delaying other ships, indicates that the hulls are NOT the delaying factor with new build ships. Things like the fusion plants are. (In the dreadnought era, the reduction gears were the longest lead time item, not the armor steel or engines—though guns were also a long lead time bit.) So if there’s parts on hand, hulls can b built faster than other pieces.

A problem with the older wallers, though: Even most of the parts are totally obsolete. We know from House of Steel that some of Manticore’s ships were near a quarter-mellenium old, and in service. Ships can last a LONG time. The laser head is comparatively recent, and bigger than old style missiles. Thus, the old ships will likely be limited to cruiser sized missiles when/if they enter service. (Or, with a FULL refit of the magazines and tubes, much smaller loadouts.) Also, the development of the laser head resulted in ships needing to carry more missiles. Think of the efforts involved in upgrading Scharnhorst from triple 11” guns to twin 15” guns.

Likewise, IIRC, the armor used in the current time is harder than the older stuff…thinking back to Grayson Skydomes and the new materials—not sure on this one.

Fusion plants have improved—probably only slightly in the case of the League, but still an improvement. Upgrading/replacing inertial compensators will be needful also.

Did textev ever say what WAS done with the captured league SD’s? Manticore might be able to hold a nice yard sale…

NHBL wrote:Did textev ever say what WAS done with the captured league SD’s? Manticore might be able to hold a nice yard sale…

They have kept the people maintaining the RMN chat forum servers employed securely for years.

JeffEngel wrote:

NHBL wrote:Did textev ever say what WAS done with the captured league SD’s? Manticore might be able to hold a nice yard sale…

They have kept the people maintaining the RMN chat forum servers employed securely for years.

And the forumites totally side-tracked