Comedy/Tragedy of Errors: Stupidity in the Honorverse

Part of the problem in understanding the duel is the fact that we do not live in Manticore. Manticoran society and norms are not ours. It is always difficult to understand a cultural norm which is radically different from our own.

Note that I'm not trying to defend Paul, and I'm not saying it wasn't stupid from a hypothetical "objective" point of view. I'm just saying that from the perspective of Manticoran society, Paul did the only proper thing. It is understanding that perspective (while stills seeing the flaws in that perspective) that can be difficult.

The author's stance on this is respected, but as myself, the author is human. Our parents teach us to think for ourselves. Judge for ourselves and to make our decisions based on intellect, upbringing and who we are. I can accomplish that for myself. I cannot speak for you. I can remain true to myself.

Wearing honor on your shoulders is desirable.
Wearing honor on your heart is patriotic.
Wearing honor up your sleeves is common.
Wearing honor on your brain is stupid.
Wearing honor on your knuckles is patriotic, common, understandable, desirable, commendable...human...and smart.

In a duel, the good guy, or the right guy, doesn't always win. How can it be smart to allow another to talk you into putting your head on a bullseye. The fastest gun doesn't determine justice, it determines experience. The difference between that same stupidity in the Honorverse and the Wild West is that in the Honorverse you can choose to walk away.

Where is the honor in dying needlessly?

One glaring problem with adopting dueling in the Honorverse is similar to adopting the metric system on Old Earth.

You want to know what's wrong with the metric system? You can't put a foot up someone's ass or beat someone to within an inch of their life.

A centimeter isn't bloody enough of a pulp and a millimeter is almost certain death.



Aside:
Now, I know that Hollywood has distorted our view of the truth about Wild West gunfights. But be that as it may, why choose death when there's another option?

http://www.neatorama.com/2012/06/07/the ... -old-west/

Of course. With your upbringing and your judgment, you would make a different decision. But can you accept that from the Manticoran perspective Paul made a proper decision? Not "accept as reasonable", but "accept as true", that his judgment (based on his upbringing) is different from yours?

As I said, understanding that a different society has different values is hard. I won't ask you to believe it was not stupid from your own perspective; I'll just ask you to accept as true that it was not stupid from the Manticoran perspective, which we have difficulty understanding. This is not a situation where there is a single objective "right" decision. It is, as you yourself implied, a situation deeply imbedded in a specific social environment.

SWM wrote:Of course. With your upbringing and your judgment, you would make a different decision. But can you accept that from the Manticoran perspective Paul made a proper decision? Not "accept as reasonable", but "accept as true", that his judgment (based on his upbringing) is different from yours?

As I said, understanding that a different society has different values is hard. I won't ask you to believe it was not stupid from your own perspective; I'll just ask you to accept as true that it was not stupid from the Manticoran perspective, which we have difficulty understanding. This is not a situation where there is a single objective "right" decision. It is, as you yourself implied, a situation deeply imbedded in a specific social environment.

Indeed!

And you are very correct - so too is that same angle of the author's. I accepted that truth. I am now putting the blame on the Manticoran system for adopting the metric system.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Of course. With your upbringing and your judgment, you would make a different decision. But can you accept that from the Manticoran perspective Paul made a proper decision? Not "accept as reasonable", but "accept as true", that his judgment (based on his upbringing) is different from yours?

As I said, understanding that a different society has different values is hard. I won't ask you to believe it was not stupid from your own perspective; I'll just ask you to accept as true that it was not stupid from the Manticoran perspective, which we have difficulty understanding. This is not a situation where there is a single objective "right" decision. It is, as you yourself implied, a situation deeply imbedded in a specific social environment.

Indeed!

And you are very correct - so too is that same angle of the author's. I accepted that truth. I am now putting the blame on the Manticoran system for adopting the metric system.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Of course. With your upbringing and your judgment, you would make a different decision. But can you accept that from the Manticoran perspective Paul made a proper decision? Not "accept as reasonable", but "accept as true", that his judgment (based on his upbringing) is different from yours?

As I said, understanding that a different society has different values is hard. I won't ask you to believe it was not stupid from your own perspective; I'll just ask you to accept as true that it was not stupid from the Manticoran perspective, which we have difficulty understanding. This is not a situation where there is a single objective "right" decision. It is, as you yourself implied, a situation deeply imbedded in a specific social environment.

Indeed!

And you are very correct - so too is that same angle of the author's. I accepted that truth. I am now putting the blame on the Manticoran system for adopting the metric system.

They were western Europeans, so they didn't adopt the metric system. They just used it.

As for imperial measures, I'm sure they can still be found on the baseball square on Grayson where yards, feet and inches are used to measure the distance between the home goal and other corner plates that the strikers run around.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Of course. With your upbringing and your judgment, you would make a different decision. But can you accept that from the Manticoran perspective Paul made a proper decision? Not "accept as reasonable", but "accept as true", that his judgment (based on his upbringing) is different from yours?

As I said, understanding that a different society has different values is hard. I won't ask you to believe it was not stupid from your own perspective; I'll just ask you to accept as true that it was not stupid from the Manticoran perspective, which we have difficulty understanding. This is not a situation where there is a single objective "right" decision. It is, as you yourself implied, a situation deeply imbedded in a specific social environment.

Indeed!

And you are very correct - so too is that same angle of the author's. I accepted that truth. I am now putting the blame on the Manticoran system for adopting the metric system.

BobfromSydney wrote:They were western Europeans, so they didn't adopt the metric system. They just used it.

As for imperial measures, I'm sure they can still be found on the baseball square on Grayson where yards, feet and inches are used to measure the distance between the home goal and other corner plates that the strikers run around.

Which means that on Grayson, you can still put a foot up someone's ass, then beat them to within an inch of their life.

Cool.

cthia wrote:Which means that on Grayson, you can still put a foot up someone's ass, then beat them to within an inch of their life.

Cool.

The metric system didn't stop people from walking around on their feet. I'm sure that saying has more to do with the physical body part than the measurement... especially as the measurement in question came from that body part in the first place!

I've heard of loads of sayings where someone is beaten to within a X of their life. Replace X with sliver, breath, heartbeat, shred. Sometimes it's a handful of those. It's up to the writer how evocative they want the imagery to be.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:Which means that on Grayson, you can still put a foot up someone's ass, then beat them to within an inch of their life.

Cool.

The metric system didn't stop people from walking around on their feet. I'm sure that saying has more to do with the physical body part than the measurement... especially as the measurement in question came from that body part in the first place!

I've heard of loads of sayings where someone is beaten to within a X of their life. Replace X with sliver, breath, heartbeat, shred. Sometimes it's a handful of those. It's up to the writer how evocative they want the imagery to be.

I suppose there is that. However, beating someone to within a sliver, breath, heartbeat or shred is a bit too vague. As some may have a shortness of breath or an irregular heartbeat, therefore built-in inconsistencies. Not to mention the loss of impact of a threat containing sliver on an intended illiterate.

Overall, threatening to put your entire foot up someone's ass then beating them to within 2.54 centimeters of their life removes a bit of bite out of the threat. And you want all of the bite to remain, to retain all twelve inches of the original threat, for those less anally retentive.

And putting a walking-foot up someone's ass varies from person to person. The internal injuries suffered from my walking-foot would be fatal as opposed to a simple fart from a visit of my sister's tiny threat.

Yes. Yes indeed. A foot is much more of a descriptive and useful measurement of threat, as it contains exactly twelve individual pummelings of being beaten to within an inch. And that's a far better effective threat measured by any yardstick - which is exactly three feet up someone's ass, which implies a heaping helping of an extra foot of assistance from someone else. A gang bang if you will.

Yep. The metric system is a pussy, cause it sucks in a fight.

In building things, such as automobiles and friendships, it's great. But this is war. A war of fisticuffs. Two fists and a pair of cuffs in the end.

And in America, where things are bigger, the pain of anal invasion is measured in inches, not in centimeters, when you are bent over and phucked in a fight without KY or a kiss. Unless you're bent over far enough that you're kissing your own ass goodbye. And that's called a round robin.

Annachie wrote:In St. Justs' defence he probably thought the information flow was towards him. More misjudgement than glaring error.
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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still not dead.

Well, Oscar had a couple of glaring lapses of paranoia.
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OK, I have to say it -- with that sig you're just begging to be the next Joe Buckley.