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Gas Stations, or....

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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:07 pm

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Alain686 wrote:This discussion regarding hydrogen has raised a question, I am not sure if it has been answered. Why would you need to store hydrogen in it's molecular form? Even liquid hydrogen has very low density and water has a lot more hydrogen per unit volume than pure hydrogen. Water is a lot easier to store and transport and has other uses besides just reactor mass.

I don't recall anyone saying that it needed to be stored in its molecular form. I could have missed that post. However, how it's stored would depend on its specific application and the logistics of the system.

What readily comes to mind is its application to hydrogen powered automobile fuel-cells, where a target density, reactive temperature and reversibility is important.

I hope enough of an excerpt to explain ...
Hydrogen is viewed as a clean energy alternative that could one day replace fossil fuels. The U.S. Department of Energy has determined that a hydrogen storage density of 9 wt% will be required for fuel-cell powered vehicles to be able to replace petroleum-fueled vehicles on a large scale [1]. Very high pressure vessels are capable of storing hydrogen at 9 wt%, but the various practical considerations indicate that other solutions will be required. A few solid-state materials, such as Li3N [2] and Li3Be2H7 [3], can absorb up to 9 wt% hydrogen, but, at the present time, these systems are reversible only near 250C.

Alanates such as LiAl4 and TiAlH44 contain more than 9 wt% hydrogen, but these systems have not yet exhibited reversibility. The related NaAlH4 material has shown 5 wt% reversibility at a temperature of 180C [4]. Compounds such as NaBH4 contain a great deal of hydrogen that can be liberated upon reaction with water, but these materials must be regenerated by a chemical process off board [5].

In previous work, we measured the binding energies for nondissociative hydrogen adsorption on both carbon single-wall (20 kJ=mol) [6] and multiwall nanotubes (54 kJ=mol) [7] when nanosized transition metal (TM) species were present. These binding energies are significantly higher than what is expected for simple van der Waals (vdW) adsorption of H2 on the carbon, and substantially lower than if atomic hydrogen were chemisorbed on the metal surfaces. The amount adsorbed and the first-order desorption process were inconsistent with dissociative hydrogen uptake by either surface chemisorption or bulk metal hydride formation.

The observation that a trace amount of transition metal can lead to an enhanced capacity with a moderate binding energy caused us to explore the ways in which carbon and metals could be combined to construct new adsorbents capable of storing large amounts of hydrogen.

Here, we report an entirely new concept for storing hydrogen in its molecular form using rationally designed, novel organometallic molecules based on C60. We show theoretically that the amount of H2 that can be retrieved reversibly at room temperature (RT) and near ambient pressure can approach 9 wt%. The design is based on the fact that both H2 and cyclopentadiene rings (Cp C5H5) can act as ligands for TMs. ATM atom interacts with a Cp ring through Dewar coordination [8] and with a dihydrogen ligand through a Kubas interaction [9]. Although each type of bonding is of historical importance in coordination chemistry [9,10], the combination of the two as a solution for hydrogen storage has never been seriously considered. Others have shown that isolated TM atoms can store up to six dihydrogen species [11,12], but the metal atoms are expected to coalesce and form bulk materials when hydrogen is removed. We show that a CpScH2 complex can store 6.7 wt% of nondissociated H2, but these complexes may polymerize after hydrogen has been removed, making the process irreversible. However, when the complexes are arranged symmetrically on a buckyball, species such as C60ScH212 and C48B12ScH12 are stable and can reversibly adsorb additional hydrogen, resulting in capacities of 7.0 and 8.77 wt%, respectively. Moreover, the reversible hydrogen is stored with a binding energy that is ideal for vehicular applications, 0.3–0.4 eV. Notice that stable TMcoated buckyballs [13] and nanotubes [14] have been recently synthesized.

We use a spin-polarized first-principles calculation as implanted in the Vienna Ab-initio Simulation Package (VASP) [15]. Ultrasoft pseudopotential with the PerdewWang 1991 [16] generalized gradient approximation yields practically the same results to an all-electron-like projector augmented-wave potential with the Perdew-BurkeErnzerhof exchange-correlation functional [17]. An energy cutoff of 400 eV was used. Two cubic unit-cell sizes of dimensions 16 and 25 A˚ were used for complexes with Cp rings and C60 ligands, respectively, to maintain a similar vacuum region. As a benchmark, we calculated CpMCp (the so-called metallocene molecule) from Sc to Ni. The M-C bond length of 2.05 A˚ for ferrocene is found to be nearly identical to the experimental value [18]. Also the calculated Sc cohesive energy of 4.08 eV is in reasonable agreement with the measured value of 3.9 eV [19].

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:17 pm

cthia
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SWM wrote:
cthia wrote:SWM, you really aren't reading my posts are you? Rhetorical question. Let's just leave it at that.

Oh, forgot to also mention the proposed hydrogen worlds around Alpha Draconis, supporting possible hydrogen breathing aliens! We may find ourselves to be the UFO's of some other world, sneaking into their atmosphere to steal their hydrogen. :lol:

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand what point you were making in your posts. My apologies. I'm happy to leave it at that.

But may I ask, what hydrogen worlds are you talking about around Alpha Draconis? I can't find any reference to planets around Alpha Draconis.


I forgot your question about Alpha Draconis. I was referencing and poking fun at 'The Disclosure Project'. Don't know why I assumed everyone was familiar with it.

http://www.truthcontrol.com/forum/alien ... ust-oxygen

Link near end of page.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by Alain686   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:21 pm

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cthia wrote:I don't recall anyone saying that it needed to be stored in its molecular form. I could have missed that post. However, how it's stored would depend on its specific application and the logistics of the system.


All of the discussion regarding mining hydrogen from molecular clouds or gas giants is what gave me the impression that in Honorverse molecular hydrogen is what is stored in the tanks as reaction mass.
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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:33 pm

cthia
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Alain686 wrote:
cthia wrote:
I don't recall anyone saying that it needed to be stored in its molecular form. I could have missed that post. However, how it's stored would depend on its specific application and the logistics of the system.


All of the discussion regarding mining hydrogen from molecular clouds or gas giants is what gave me the impression that in Honorverse molecular hydrogen is what is stored in the tanks as reaction mass.

Someone else will have to field that question, as I don't know anything about RFC's engines. I always assumed liquid hydrogen. Taking on liquid hydrogen as reactor mass would be much easier than a molecular hydrogen system.

Although liquid hydrogen systems sound Hindenburgishly dangerous!

Found this, not an official site, apparently there's something somewhere in the Pearls..
How does fission power magically become more efficient than fusion? In Echoes of Honor the key to making the Shrike's work is their fission reactors. Presumably they provide about the same level of power as a fusion reactor, but the real key to making them work is their lack of reactor mass. Well here's the thing, fusion is more powerful and efficient than fission. You get more energy out of fusing the same mass of hydrogen than you would fissing the same mass of uranium or plutonium. ◦ I suppose it's not so much about mass as it is about volume. Apparently you need a lot of room to build a proper fusion reactor, and fuel storage would take up quite a bit of space as well (hydrogen starts getting really rowdy if you try to compress it too much). Meanwhile, the amount of fissile material needed to achieve the same power output would probably have significantly greater mass but also far greater density, along with the device itself likely taking up less space. ◾ It is. The respective novel devotes a sizable infodump on how any extended mission requires enormous amounts of reactor mass — not only because fusion reactors are inefficient, but because the hydrogen they use as fuel has also innumerable other uses on a starship (particularly the propellant for the reaction thrusters used when impellers are off), and how it takes the enormous volumes even in the liquified form. Fission piles need to be significantly bigger than the fusion reactors of the similar power, and their fuel might weigh several tens times more, but because the plutonium, at 19.816 grams per cubic centimeter, is roughly 280 times more dense than the liquid hydrogen (which weighs only 0.07 grams for the same volume),note they still get the enormous volume advantage. And for the propellant they just use water, which is still 14 times denser than liquid hydrogen.

◦ IIRC, it was explicitly stated that the fission reactors produce less power than the standard grav-fusion starship reactors. It's just that one of those is enough to run an entire destroyer, and is actually substantial overkill for a much-smaller LAC. The fission reactors don't quite produce enough power to run everything at once, but that's dealt with using seriously oversized superconductor-ring "capacitors" (Weber calls them capacitors, they're technically superconducting magnetic energy storage systems, but the role is equivalent).

.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by Alain686   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:03 pm

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cthia wrote:Someone else will have to field that question, as I don't know anything about RFC's engines. I always assumed liquid hydrogen. Taking on liquid hydrogen as reactor mass would be much easier than a molecular hydrogen system.

Although liquid hydrogen systems sound Hindenburgishly dangerous!

Found this, not an official site, apparently there's something somewhere in the Pearls..


Thanks for the quote, oh well, I thought it was kind of odd that if you have fusion via gravity that you would go through the trouble of storing hydrogen in it's molecular form instead of chemically bonded to something else. Hydrogen is notoriously difficult to keep contained as it will diffuse through metals and cause embrittlement in susceptible material.
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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:00 pm

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Alain686 wrote:
cthia wrote:Someone else will have to field that question, as I don't know anything about RFC's engines. I always assumed liquid hydrogen. Taking on liquid hydrogen as reactor mass would be much easier than a molecular hydrogen system.

Although liquid hydrogen systems sound Hindenburgishly dangerous!

Found this, not an official site, apparently there's something somewhere in the Pearls..


Thanks for the quote, oh well, I thought it was kind of odd that if you have fusion via gravity that you would go through the trouble of storing hydrogen in it's molecular form instead of chemically bonded to something else. Hydrogen is notoriously difficult to keep contained as it will diffuse through metals and cause embrittlement in susceptible material.


Given that it's deuterium and tritium that are used in Nuclear reactions, not "standard" hydrogen, probably a good time to change the dialogue a bit, yes? Unless they have a process to convert standard Hydrogen to either of those, then it would be a very poor fuel compared to other compound elements.
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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by JohnRoth   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:54 pm

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cthia wrote:Someone else will have to field that question, as I don't know anything about RFC's engines. I always assumed liquid hydrogen. Taking on liquid hydrogen as reactor mass would be much easier than a molecular hydrogen system.

Although liquid hydrogen systems sound Hindenburgishly dangerous!

Found this, not an official site, apparently there's something somewhere in the Pearls..


Alain686 wrote:Thanks for the quote, oh well, I thought it was kind of odd that if you have fusion via gravity that you would go through the trouble of storing hydrogen in it's molecular form instead of chemically bonded to something else. Hydrogen is notoriously difficult to keep contained as it will diffuse through metals and cause embrittlement in susceptible material.


SharkHunter wrote:Given that it's deuterium and tritium that are used in Nuclear reactions, not "standard" hydrogen, probably a good time to change the dialogue a bit, yes? Unless they have a process to convert standard Hydrogen to either of those, then it would be a very poor fuel compared to other compound elements.


Say what? Deuterium and Tritium are used in current experimental reactors because they have a lower fusion temperature and pressure than ordinary hydrogen, and for no other reason. Deuterium has to be extracted from water, and tritium has to be created in another nuclear reactor - since it's radioactive with a half-life of around 11 years, it does not occur in nature. Since we don't actually have working fusion power reactors, we don't really know what the best way of feeding them would be.

Using ordinary hydrogen would give a substantially better energy yield per unit mass. Since RFC's fusion reactors are basically arm-waves, we have no basis for knowing what the form of fuel is, or how it's acquired. As KZT pointed out upthread, hydrolyzing water to make hydrogen is pretty much a no-brainer as long as there is water to hydrolyze, and without water you don't have a habitable system.

Also, since bunker space has been specified as an issue, I don't see storing the hydrogen with something else that would simply add mass and take up space.
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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by SWM   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:00 pm

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cthia wrote:
SWM wrote:But may I ask, what hydrogen worlds are you talking about around Alpha Draconis? I can't find any reference to planets around Alpha Draconis.


I forgot your question about Alpha Draconis. I was referencing and poking fun at 'The Disclosure Project'. Don't know why I assumed everyone was familiar with it.

http://www.truthcontrol.com/forum/alien ... ust-oxygen

Link near end of page.

Thanks for the link. I didn't notice it before because I deliberately ignored that site and a number of similar sites in my search. I take great pains to pay no attention to the crackpot fringe, because of the pains they always give me. :D
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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by SWM   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:21 pm

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cthia wrote:Let's divide the universe, whatever its size, into four equal parts. Of the quarter that we're in, how much of our present observation covers it? One percent? Two percent? Five percent? 10? Okay, I'll be very very generous. Verrrrry... Let's say our observation covers half of our quarter of the universe. Do you think that is enough to base our findings on the universe as a whole? That other seventy-five percent?

Thanks for the clarification of what you meant. I still disagree with a few of the points you make, but there's not much point in belaboring them further. But in this paragraph, you have some specific questions that I think you want me to address.

In answer to how much of the universe we have observed in detail? Very little, of course. Observed in sufficient detail to learn about the molecular clouds? Even less. I'd be willing to say that the local galaxies comprise far less than one percent of the entire universe.

But in answer to the question, do I (or other scientists) think that is enough to base findings on the universe as a whole? The answer is yes. Astronomers do think that, statistically, we can determine certain characteristics of the entire universe based on observations of local galaxies. And more specifically, when we have observed a number of nearby galaxies and determined certain statistical characteristics of molecular clouds across all of those galaxies, we can be pretty sure that those same statistical characteristics apply to our own galaxy as well.

It is exactly the same way that a chemist can say he can determine the composition of a tanker full of fluid by analyzing a single drop. The statistics give you a high confidence of accuracy.
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Re: Gas Stations, or....
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:16 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:Given that it's deuterium and tritium that are used in Nuclear reactions, not "standard" hydrogen, probably a good time to change the dialogue a bit, yes? Unless they have a process to convert standard Hydrogen to either of those, then it would be a very poor fuel compared to other compound elements.


Say what? Deuterium and Tritium are used in current experimental reactors because they have a lower fusion temperature and pressure than ordinary hydrogen, and for no other reason. Deuterium has to be extracted from water, and tritium has to be created in another nuclear reactor - since it's radioactive with a half-life of around 11 years, it does not occur in nature. Since we don't actually have working fusion power reactors, we don't really know what the best way of feeding them would be.

Using ordinary hydrogen would give a substantially better energy yield per unit mass. Since RFC's fusion reactors are basically arm-waves, we have no basis for knowing what the form of fuel is, or how it's acquired. As KZT pointed out upthread, hydrolyzing water to make hydrogen is pretty much a no-brainer as long as there is water to hydrolyze, and without water you don't have a habitable system.

Also, since bunker space has been specified as an issue, I don't see storing the hydrogen with something else that would simply add mass and take up space.

The problem is that it takes more energy to hydrolyze the water than the burning of the hydrogen produces, which is why I think that the idea of 'hydrogen mining' the gas giants as ubiquitous throughout the HonorVerse instead of specified.

That said, you are correct, I assumed that RFC's reactors, unless powered by handwavium, would probably use our "known fuels" (d / t) mined for their fuel as that's the only thing that made sense to me for "bomb pumped lasers" and contact nukes [see the wikipedia article on thermonuclear weapons]. I figured the ships would run on the same fuels, but if that is a bad assumption, I can live with it.
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