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Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army

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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by PalmerSperry   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:13 am

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Alizon wrote:Yes, I'm sure you can target Kinetic Weapons very precisely but essentially all you're doing is substituting kinetic energy from chemical or nuclear energy and how much energy you need to use is still going to be governed by the target you are trying to destroy. If the target is well defended and strengthened to resist such attacks, the amount of energy needed to reduce it could be very substantial and lead to considerable collateral damage.

Essentially, if you have a structure designed to resist a nuclear explosion, then you're going to need an energy release equivalent to a nuclear explosion to engage that target effectively. While a KEW probably would be a cleaner weapon in comparison to a Nuke, that energy release is still going to damage a lot of things and kill a lot of people, probably people you'd rather not kill.


A structure hardened to deal with a nuclear blast (in our universe) is one that's capable of dealing with with a certain amount of over-pressure for a comparative brief period of time over a large area. It doesn't necessarily mean it'll surviving having something like a 5000lb GBU-28 scoring a direct hit.

Alizon wrote:How do you deal with enemy forces in the field or dispersed throughout major urban areas without devastating the areas surrounding them? Does "precisely target" mean a hypervelocity pebble for every soldier? Do RMN ships carry dedicated mass drivers for just such an event? What would you have to do to defeat a planet which has made substantial preparations to defend against such an attack? If you are using KEW's, what would be the difference between using a weapon of mass destruction and using KEW's to subdue a planet?


If you're plinking individual tanks and groups of troops, then a full-on alpha-strike style KEW is probably overkill. I strongly suspect the RMN (and other navies) have weapons to deal with this sort of situation - "rods from god" or something like a CBU-97.

Alizon wrote:KEW's have the same problem as nukes. If you really need to depend on them to force a planet to surrender, you really need the planet to either cooperate with you or you need to be prepared to devastate it's surface otherwise the threat that goes along with it's use is relatively minor, sort of like lobbing the occasional cruise missile at people you don't like. People need to believe you will use them as WMD's in order for them to be cowed into submission.


That only holds if KEWs are only available in sizes equivalent to nukes. If I drop a KEW equivalent to a GBU-28 I doubt it's going to cause catastrophic damage to the entire planetary surface.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:17 pm

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Jaxon06 wrote:
hanuman wrote:
It's really not a good idea to use Masada as an example wrt any kind of common practice or behaviour. They're too far outside the mainstream of galactic society.


And that comment is based on what?


Pretty much every mention of Masada in Textev?
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Jaxon06   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:42 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Pretty much every mention of Masada in Textev?


I disagree, as their particular brand of crazy isn't that more "common practice or behavior" than many of the "settled" worlds...
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:51 pm

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Jaxon06 wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
Pretty much every mention of Masada in Textev?


I disagree, as their particular brand of crazy isn't that more "common practice or behavior" than many of the "settled" worlds...


For me to make semse of this, you are going to elaborate upon your point. Masada's religious fanaticism is pretty extreme...

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Arol   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:06 pm

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Jaxon06 wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
Pretty much every mention of Masada in Textev?


I disagree, as their particular brand of crazy isn't that more "common practice or behavior" than many of the "settled" worlds...


Is it not that while extremism is not unknown in the “Honorverse”, it has up to now been of the political variety. Masada’s uniqueness lies in that its extremism has a religious base.
The brand might be different, but the results are usually the same ; mayhem and destruction.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:24 pm

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Jaxon06 wrote:I disagree, as their particular brand of crazy isn't that more "common practice or behavior" than many of the "settled" worlds...


How many other instances of space station traffic controllers ignoring docking spaceships because a woman was in control?

How many outlaw groups have we seen that made Scrags look sane and open-minded?

The problem with Masada is that those aren't isolated cases. It isn't the religious fantaticism, it is "the death to all unbelievers" track record.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by SWM   » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:02 pm

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Jaxon06 wrote:
hanuman wrote:
It's really not a good idea to use Masada as an example wrt any kind of common practice or behaviour. They're too far outside the mainstream of galactic society.


And that comment is based on what?

How about the fact that Masada repeatedly dropped nukes on another inhabited planet, indiscriminately, over a period of decades. Or the fact that they effectively enslave all women. Or the fact that they will not tolerate any other religion, ever. Or the fact that their stated policy is to either conquer Grayson or destroy it, with no negotiation possible. All of this is considered extreme behavior in the Honorverse. Masada is most definitely very far outside the mainstream of galactic society.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Arol   » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:38 am

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SWM wrote:How about the fact that Masada repeatedly dropped nukes on another inhabited planet, indiscriminately, over a period of decades. Or the fact that they effectively enslave all women. Or the fact that they will not tolerate any other religion, ever. Or the fact that their stated policy is to either conquer Grayson or destroy it, with no negotiation possible. All of this is considered extreme behavior in the Honorverse. Masada is most definitely very far outside the mainstream of galactic society.

It may be what set’s Masada outside the pale of Honorverse is its rampant prejudice.
The Honorverse is amazingly devoid of prejudice, age, racial, gender or religious or whatever. With the exception of the class arrogance of entities like Manticore’s Conservative Association and their ilk prejudice is almost non existent.
The atrocities Masada both carried out and had planned might be, for all we know, regular occurrences in the Verge.
But in the know Honorverse one of the major dissimilarity that sets Masada apart is its almost rabid religious and gender based prejudice.

p.s. Yes I know Grayson suffered from some of the same ailments, but they are trying to move past it, unlike Masada.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Duckk   » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:45 am

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The atrocities Masada both carried out and had planned might be, for all we know, regular occurrences in the Verge.


The Eridani Edict has been applied only five times over the centuries of its existence. No one is out there planning to bomb their neighbors into the Stone Age.
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Re: Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army
Post by Hutch   » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:52 am

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Duckk wrote:
The atrocities Masada both carried out and had planned might be, for all we know, regular occurrences in the Verge.


The Eridani Edict has been applied only five times over the centuries of its existence. No one is out there planning to bomb their neighbors into the Stone Age.


With due deference, Duckk, five planets did (albeit over centuries of time) knowing the EE would be applied. To say 'no one' is contemplating it may be a bit much...I agree, it is unlikely, but it is not impossible.

IMHO as always.
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