Remaining holes in SLN intel

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Older posts i didn't comment on, from my re-reading today.

drothgery wrote:Snipped
And it was powered by perpetual motion. Because the DDM were impossible. There was a definitive paper written centuries ago on it.

And when MDMs were just a secret Manty research project, that makes sense. However, they were the decisive weapons in the final battlese of the First Havenite War seven years ago. And were thrown around in immense numbers by both sides in the Second Havenite War. They could easily be skeptical of exact performance numbers, but not realizing Manticore had made some major improvements in missile tech at the end of the first war, and that Haven had largely matched it by the second... I don't think even the SLN would have failed to notice it without active Alignment meddling.

If you go back to the Buttercup timeframe, the war had been dragging out for a decade. By Sollie standards, a system invasion just takes a day--bring Ming the Merciless to orbit, stomp a few neo-barb, if they don't surrender today, they eat KEWs tomorrow. . . .

And given the very small numbers of Podlayers, while the RMN would have hurt the SLN badly, at that time if 500 or 600 sollie wallers invaded the home system while 8th Fleet was in Haven's territory--Manticore loses.

ldwechsler wrote:Snip
In the case of Manticoran missiles, there are a whole lot of developments that have been ignored. Remember that MAlign knows about them. But they've kept the mandarins and the navy from knowing about it.
Snip

I might be remembering wrong, but we got some insight into Technodyne by way of Levakonic in SoSag. I thought Technodyne had been trying for years to get the SLN to fund their research, by giving them what data they could get from Haven before Buttercup changed the regime. The Malign was embedded in both Technodyne and the SLN community; I think if the Detweilers could have broken through the Sollie skulls and gotten them interested in paying for the R&D, they wouldn't have minded at all. After all, they would also have all the data and the same missiles; AND their spider drive.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Snip
They DID have reports from the SDF observers. They had even gotten to Bygn. They determined the reports were absurd. Plus MDM were impossible. Its possible the Alignment encouraged that interpretation.
SNIP

The malign had a little help from the Maya sector, and possibly other would-be warlords in that endeavor.

feyhunde wrote:SNIP
It's actually worse then that. The key development the SLN never felt in its bones was the Laser Head. The SLN hasn't fought a battle with a Waller using laser heads. The result of this is the SLN didn't understand how much more lethal missile combat became.

You see this in their ships. Their SD's are about the size of the last generation of Haven Quadrant DDs. Comparing the Scientist Class to the King William Class, the KW has 8 more tubes per broadside, nearly 4 times the counter missile tubes, and more than double the PD stations.

The King William was built early in the life of the Laser Head, but the RMN actually had a radical design in the King William, with the vast increase in Missile emphasis. Even then, we still had the Senior Leadership as of OBS thinking in terms of energy engagements.
SNIP
The missile ranges of MDMs, and everything else flows from that. Eg. 'who cares what range a missile has when it really can't kill a waller'.

And the answer is:

Mission of Honor,Chap 20 wrote:
By the standards of the prewar Royal Manticoran Navy, they weren’t that bad a design, although the first of the Scientists had been built long enough ago that they’d still been equipped with projectile-firing point defense systems.
snip
The Scientists were 6.8 million-ton units with thirty-two missile tubes, twenty-four lasers, and twenty-six grasers in each broadside. That was a heavier—or, at least, more numerous—energy broadside than any modern Manticoran or Grayson superdreadnought would have mounted. On the other hand, they had only sixteen counter-missile tubes and thirty-two point defense stations in each broadside,

So:
Scientist-Class superdreadnought
Mass: 6.8 M tons
Broadside: 32M,24L, 26G,19CM, 32 PD
versus:
King William-class superdreadnought
Mass: 7,170,750 tons
Broadside: 32M, 19L, 21G, 26CM, 28PD
Chase: 8M, 6L, 4G, 10CM, 10PD
Not so very different--but the years since that design, a lot of changes were made in RMN construction. IT is worth noting that the energy battery was also considered "missile defense", which may be why their are so many lasers. Haven Doctrine and design in the first war was heavily built on the Sollie design and doctrine, and they still use the main battery as part of their "layered defense."

Somtaaw wrote:Might not have been Byng we saw it with, but there's definitely been at least a few intelligence reports circulating among Solly Admirals, that grav-pulse comms and MDM's are/were possible.

There was a whole lot of CYA hedging, with size-this, and power-that but the scientists concluded it was impossible with anything below the wall. And that even wallers would have trouble fitting grav-pulse AND meaningful armaments in. And that it was possible that waller missiles might be able to squeeze a second drive, but three is definitely impossible and obvious lies, anyone who squeezes three drives is using system-defense missiles and not ship-launched.

That's why when Filareta heard about Crandall, he simply assumed Manticore managed to scrape up system-defense pods, despite the whole surprise attack that later gets called Yawata Strike. And even the Mandarins figured there simply HAD to be wallers Manticore wasn't admitting were there for intimidation. Because obviously by suggesting RMN cruisers could go toe-to-toe with wallers is hyperbole, everybody knows cruisers run away from wallers.... right?

No no, that was so very much Byng. So the Dissemination function of ONI seems to be working in the SOL system, even if they can't get critical info out to the FF officers.

ldwechsler wrote:Another reason why the Sollies won't catch up all that fast.
The Manties had moved so far beyond them in so many fields. Not only FTL communication, but missile size, missile control, ship size, laser heads, and probably a half dozen more areas.

There'll be a lot of catching up to do and it won't be quick. And since they're way behind in espionage within the Grand Alliance, it will not be easy to steal secrets. Particularly since it's wartime so any Mantie, Havenite, etc. giving info would be committing treason and the penalties would be draconian.

Like Haven, they don't have to catch up all the way, just get within shouting distance and overwhelm them with numbers. How quick it is will depend on their willingness to start with a blank sheet of paper, and accurately assess the capabilities they need, even if the designs are oversized and clumsy. If they are already turning to modular design, they could pump out a bunch of War-Harvest or Bridgeport conversion designs that are nothing but missile defense; The GA can't afford to build specialist designs like that (except for LACS); the Sollies can't afford not to build them.

Brigade XO wrote:SNIP
Have you missed the point that there are litteraly HUNDREDS of freighters cycling back and forth beetween the SD terminus (and so to Manticore) carrying God knows what in the way of probable war materials as well as component parts and equipment to rebuild the Manticorian muntions productions, repair and build Manticoranian warships, as well as restablish (and train part of the workforce) and rebuild the destroyed orbital industries which for the last 20+ years have been churning out the most advanced military hardware in the known Human part of the galaxy along with the manufacturing and shipping juggernaought that was Manticore?

It's been a long week, I want the next book

In addition to Beowulf's contribution (and how much of that was bought from other League Members?), the construction people working on San Martin and Lynx' orbital infrastructure ought to be far enough along to a least build parts of the structural framework . . . .

Jonathan_S wrote:Well, we do know that the League Assembly was able to slap an embargo on selling military tech / ships to Manticore and Haven during the first war. (Defense firms did it anyway, but under the table and got slapped when caught). That implies that at least for certain sensitive categories of goods there is League level export rules (but of course we don't know if those rules get implemented / enforced by League level inspections or if they're simply handed down from on high as mandates for each local system's customs force to handle).

Wasn't the Assembly, which couldn't have enforced it.

Mission of Honor chap 47 wrote: "I admit none of them seem to have exactly covered themselves with glory," Omosupe Quartermain observed with a grimace, picking up the discarded note as if he'd deposited a small, several-days-dead rodent in the middle of her blotter, "but I wouldn't have believed even Manties could be stupid enough to hand us something like this!"
"And why not?" Malachai Abruzzi demanded with an even more disgusted grimace. "They've been getting progressively more uppity for years now—ever since they managed to extort that frigging 'technology embargo' against Haven out of your people, Omosupe."

Fireflair wrote:SNIP

So no, the SLN doesn't seem to be aware of SD(P)'s, despite all these years that RHN and RMN have been throwing thousands of missiles back and forth at each other. To the SLN the RMN has bigger ships in order to promote bigger weapons, without considering that they're using that hull space for more PDLCs, CM launchers and armor to survive the new environment. There's been a number of comments about 'Mantie big assed ___' take your pick of ship class.

There is also no indication that the SLN is at all aware of the reduction in crew sizes and vast increases in automation which have gone on through out the RMN. You might suspect that if the SLN had some half way decent intel services they'd pick up on any of these things. I really think that the MWW stretches Sollie stupidity a bit far in this case. It's become a plot device more than anything.

Other people have said before: it's sort of like the pre-WWI naval arms race in South America. Buying, or building, over-sized over-gunned ships without the budget,personnel or maintenance facilities or munitions to operate, simply to tell the other boys, "mine's bigger!"

Dunno if anyone will bother with this recap, but it amused me.

And I am going merrily murkily lurking for a few days now, unless someone addresses a specific question to me. I am not going to read the next 40 pages. .. .no, no not.!

Regards,
Rob[/quote]

The simple fact is that the Solarian Navy did not believe the "neobarbs" were on their level. Under the guidance of MAlign, they ignored what was going on.

Had they sent people and listened, they would have behaved differently. I remember reading that the European powers sent observers to the American Civil War and those people came back with recommendations galore.

This is a bit like the US in the fifties when it was assumed our tech edge would give us a victory in VietNam. Had we really noted what was going on, we might not have gone in.

ldwechsler wrote:Had they sent people and listened, they would have behaved differently. I remember reading that the European powers sent observers to the American Civil War and those people came back with recommendations galore.

And didn’t do anything with them.

Look at the list of the Observers that were present for the Russo-Japanese war. They included the guy who was the head of the UK’s Imperial General Staff in WWI, Gen Pershing, Douglas McArthur, and a future Marshal of Italy. Everything they saw there happened in WWI.

Did they learn anything from seeing what barbed wire, tranches and machine guns did for defenses? No.

drinksmuchcoffee wrote:In fairness to the SLN, Manticore was very good at hiding their tech advances in plain sight. In HoS there is mention about this technique with respect to the Star Knight class CA. If I recall, the first Medusas (SD(P)s) were carried on the books as follow-ons to the Gryphon SDs.

You can go a long ways with this approach. For a long time in the States cryptography wasn't generally "classified" but finding nuts-and-bolts information on how to actually implement crypto systems was pretty challenging. Similarly, in the 80's if you were doing anything fancy with signal processing (especially if you were making custom hardware to do it) you would be discreetly checked out, usually by people from the Department of Commerce.

It is very simple. You can hide advances when no one is really looking.

The information that SLN had was years out of date. We have seen how Byng and others worked to suppress anything other than the party line.

When Byng's ship was destroyed, the navy got the chips with all the information on it. Once the analysts saw how easy it was for the Manties to do their damage, that info should have been sent all through the navy. And it wasn't.

Same later for Crandall.

A lot of things can be inferred from even those ships about acceleration and distance and accuracy.

But no one did much at all.

The whole attach through the Wormhole discussion. What do we have and not have?

What we have been shown so far is that at the majority of wormholes in the SL and the Verge don't seem to have much more than a local Astro Control and a few customs (old style SL type) LACs at them. Once in a while (that exchange in the start of Lacoon I) a SLN warship is near a terminus....ONE ship. Not much is mentioned of anybody fortifying or mining their terminus except Manticore and they intialy just have that at the Junction---and for that the time frame is post Haven taking San Martin and so holding the San Matiin end of that terminus to the Junction.

Come forward. MANTICORE has been for years partially replacing warships at the Junction and at the termini with Forts in addition to some warships and expanding the minefields. The minefifelds may or may not be in place at all of the Junctions termini but the forts are as well as local station warship patrols. In addition, SEM has those nifty new variations of LACs which they can use from & in addition to the forts so there is a lot more manuverabity in applying force. The stratage here appears to make the exit lanes a killing zone with mines backed up with the forts (which rotate on/off duty in whatever cycles) instead of warships (tougher, not hyper capable, larger). Then there is the LAC & RMN Naval contingent which is primarily to defend againt attack from normal space after hyperspace transit to clear the defences away and allow transit fo other forces.

Ok.....theoreticaly the maximum transit capacity or one transit and wormhole recover time is known (if not openly published) for each wormhole. Along with that would be at least a calculation of "if you put X amount of shipping through, you need Y amount of time before the next transit" so you have differenent recovery times for a DB vs a 6million ton ship and run that up through various amounts of tonage.
Certainly Beowulf (as part owners of the Sigma Draconis terminus) has at least that much information on it's own wormhole. Would have been interesting to have mentioned if they had given that bit of information to SLN when initaly approched to shove SDs through it.
Various ONI (at least) should be gathering and compiling that info for their own use (offense/defence/just logistics of getting here-to-there. Yes, we see the RMN BC Captain wishing he had that and other information on the LAST bridge used he had already come through ?how many? and apparently had no difficulties (persume either knew what was the capacity/recycle rates/what should be on the other side).

SLN has covert operatives in "Newagency) DBs out at the Manticore Terminus and some regular passing of info -the DB itself to be used as the runner go tell the reinforcements when Fillerta comes in and attacks- and why isn't the operatives mention to home office that there are all these ACTIVE FORTS, odd LACS, still massive mine fields and a crapload of RMN warships out around the Junction.....and it sure seems like business as usual under wartime conditions agains Haven....remember, these people had to get there comping from Sigma Draconis TO the Junction and traveling out through exactly the same lane the SLN force would be comming down. Hell, you could have run a covert operation freighter with massively better than usual passive sensors through and dumped the data from retrival and passing back. Nobody though of that?

Nobody at SLN thought that perhaps they could run a covert operation on a nutral freighter into the Manticore home system delvering stuff and take a look at what was swarming around instead of "their fleet has been gutted by a surprize attack"?
Or even ask Beowulf what their information was? You could always compare Beowulf's answer to agent's oversvation?

After Monica, then Byng and then Crandall, somebody at SLN might have thought
....gee, Manticore just beat all those recycled/upgraded BCs at Monica, destroyed Byng and captured his fleet and then DESTROYED Crandall's fleet at Spindle.....and had recently destroyed or captured a couple of Haven fleets attacking the Manticor Home System and have just had some "party unknown" trash their infrastructure.....I bet if we throw 300 SD at the Manticore Home System, they will just rollover and surrender.
How about.....we should take a look and see just what they now have at home because give what they have been doing to 1) Haven, 2) to our glorious Admirals 3) they should be madder than wet hornets who's nest has been wacked, and 4) The RMN doesn't back off in face of adversity, they have always fought like Spartins and THIS IS THEIR HOME SYSTEM THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN ATTACKED TWICE IN THE LAST X MONTHS AND THEY COULD BE A BIT ANNOYED AND MOTIVATED TO DO SOMETHING STUPID LIKE FIGHT LIKE SMART RABID DOGS WITH THOSE WEAPONS THAT CAN'T EXIST BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THEM BUT SEEM TO BE DOING THE JOB JUST FINE IF WE HIT THEM NOW?

Nobody calculated the probability of what the damage/losses would be sending the task force (in various pieces dependent on number ships vs. wormhole recover time) till they go anyting in the than small pieces that made it beyond the recovery time for the ships and crews post transit such that they could start to defend the ships, let alone take offensive action against mines/forts and whatever warships might be around?

No, appently not. Either that or the idea of loseing ?dozens? of SD and crews in batches (spread over intervals of Y times between transits alowing for defender to regroup) forcing the wormhole was an acceptable cost to achieve victory.

And nobody (from Astro Control) might have had several freighters take a messge thought to the Manticore side of the wormhole that there appeared to be 100+ of somebody's SD heading this way and there was only one plausable reason for that.....wake up and tell the guys in fire control they are about to have some targets? Remember, particulary just before Fillerta attacks, the BSDF commanding Admiral has already said they would fight you if you attempt to do this, why don't you think the people on the other side of that wormhole arn't going to be locked & loaded and ready for you (armed, hot, ready and with massivly layer mobile defences in depth) ?

Just saying.

Then there is the distinct possibility that the Alignment has people who have twisted and manipulated both the information used, the plans made and circumvented prudent policy to keep from using reality, prudent recon and something other than "We're the SLN, surrender of die" as a recipe for victory.

Yeah, I smell Alignment screwing around here.

General Haig will explain.

“Gentlemen, the key is what our French allies call ‘Attaque à outrance’. Simply put the victor will be the side with the strongest will, courage, and dash (élan), and that every attack must therefore be pushed to the limit. Eventually this will cause the defenders will to break and allow our morally superior forces to break through and undermine their lines.”

Brigade XO wrote:SLN has covert operatives in "Newagency) DBs out at the Manticore Terminus and some regular passing of info -the DB itself to be used as the runner go tell the reinforcements when Fillerta comes in and attacks- and why isn't the operatives mention to home office that there are all these ACTIVE FORTS, odd LACS, still massive mine fields and a crapload of RMN warships out around the Junction.....and it sure seems like business as usual under wartime conditions agains Haven....remember, these people had to get there comping from Sigma Draconis TO the Junction and traveling out through exactly the same lane the SLN force would be comming down. Hell, you could have run a covert operation freighter with massively better than usual passive sensors through and dumped the data from retrival and passing back. Nobody though of that?

Though that last variation is dicey. I don't know if Manticore ever relaxed their wartime restrictions, but at least for a while they were inspecting the sensor suites of merchant ships and impounding or kicking out any who had an inexplicably good one -- to cut down on how much data Haven could get on Manticoran Home System forces and defenses by slipping 'neutral' shipping through as snoop ships.

Trying to get fancy and use a significantly better sensor suite might deny you any timely intel if the ship was impounded, or the sensor records wiped, or if it was just forced to fly home the long way. But the main Junction defenses are close enough even an average merchi sensor set should have no trouble seeing them - so no need to risk getting nothing by trying to get more than just whether or not they're there.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:SLN has covert operatives in "Newagency) DBs out at the Manticore Terminus and some regular passing of info -the DB itself to be used as the runner go tell the reinforcements when Fillerta comes in and attacks- and why isn't the operatives mention to home office that there are all these ACTIVE FORTS, odd LACS, still massive mine fields and a crapload of RMN warships out around the Junction.....and it sure seems like business as usual under wartime conditions agains Haven....remember, these people had to get there comping from Sigma Draconis TO the Junction and traveling out through exactly the same lane the SLN force would be comming down. Hell, you could have run a covert operation freighter with massively better than usual passive sensors through and dumped the data from retrival and passing back. Nobody though of that?

Though that last variation is dicey. I don't know if Manticore ever relaxed their wartime restrictions, but at least for a while they were inspecting the sensor suites of merchant ships and impounding or kicking out any who had an inexplicably good one -- to cut down on how much data Haven could get on Manticoran Home System forces and defenses by slipping 'neutral' shipping through as snoop ships.

Trying to get fancy and use a significantly better sensor suite might deny you any timely intel if the ship was impounded, or the sensor records wiped, or if it was just forced to fly home the long way. But the main Junction defenses are close enough even an average merchi sensor set should have no trouble seeing them - so no need to risk getting nothing by trying to get more than just whether or not they're there.

I would guess it would not be hard for a professional intelligence operation to find out these things. Certainly MAlign had little trouble.

And we have tantalizing hints that a lot of the key info is hidden in Sollie files. In other words, MAlign is compromising the intelligence system.

ldwechsler wrote:
I would guess it would not be hard for a professional intelligence operation to find out these things. Certainly MAlign had little trouble.

And we have tantalizing hints that a lot of the key info is hidden in Sollie files. In other words, MAlign is compromising the intelligence system.

1) At this point there is NO SLMM flagged traffic in any wormhole controlled by Manticore. 2) League bottoms, such as they are and what few there are of them, are owned buy corporations who may or may not share info with ONI who will or (probably) not pay it any attention. As opposed to RMMM whose captains are frequently retired or half-pay RMN whose observations are definitely passed up the chain to Adm Givens. (3) Yes the MAlign has MM captains passing information on, and it is being heeded.

If you're the 800kg gorilla and there is no perceived threat, you get complacent. the MAlign does not actively need to shut down investigations, all it needs to do is whisper "bah! humbug" in the right ear.

Brigade XO wrote:The whole attach through the Wormhole discussion. What do we have and not have?

What we have been shown so far is that at the majority of wormholes in the SL and the Verge don't seem to have much more than a local Astro Control and a few customs (old style SL type) LACs at them. Once in a while (that exchange in the start of Lacoon I) a SLN warship is near a terminus....ONE ship. Not much is mentioned of anybody fortifying or mining their terminus except Manticore and they intialy just have that at the Junction---and for that the time frame is post Haven taking San Martin and so holding the San Matiin end of that terminus to the Junction.

Come forward. MANTICORE has been for years partially replacing warships at the Junction and at the termini with Forts in addition to some warships and expanding the minefields. The minefifelds may or may not be in place at all of the Junctions termini but the forts are as well as local station warship patrols. In addition, SEM has those nifty new variations of LACs which they can use from & in addition to the forts so there is a lot more manuverabity in applying force. The stratage here appears to make the exit lanes a killing zone with mines backed up with the forts (which rotate on/off duty in whatever cycles) instead of warships (tougher, not hyper capable, larger). Then there is the LAC & RMN Naval contingent which is primarily to defend againt attack from normal space after hyperspace transit to clear the defences away and allow transit fo other forces.

Ok.....theoreticaly the maximum transit capacity or one transit and wormhole recover time is known (if not openly published) for each wormhole. Along with that would be at least a calculation of "if you put X amount of shipping through, you need Y amount of time before the next transit" so you have differenent recovery times for a DB vs a 6million ton ship and run that up through various amounts of tonage.
Certainly Beowulf (as part owners of the Sigma Draconis terminus) has at least that much information on it's own wormhole. Would have been interesting to have mentioned if they had given that bit of information to SLN when initaly approched to shove SDs through it.
Various ONI (at least) should be gathering and compiling that info for their own use (offense/defence/just logistics of getting here-to-there. Yes, we see the RMN BC Captain wishing he had that and other information on the LAST bridge used he had already come through ?how many? and apparently had no difficulties (persume either knew what was the capacity/recycle rates/what should be on the other side).

SLN has covert operatives in "Newagency) DBs out at the Manticore Terminus and some regular passing of info -the DB itself to be used as the runner go tell the reinforcements when Fillerta comes in and attacks- and why isn't the operatives mention to home office that there are all these ACTIVE FORTS, odd LACS, still massive mine fields and a crapload of RMN warships out around the Junction.....and it sure seems like business as usual under wartime conditions agains Haven....remember, these people had to get there comping from Sigma Draconis TO the Junction and traveling out through exactly the same lane the SLN force would be comming down. Hell, you could have run a covert operation freighter with massively better than usual passive sensors through and dumped the data from retrival and passing back. Nobody though of that?

Nobody at SLN thought that perhaps they could run a covert operation on a nutral freighter into the Manticore home system delvering stuff and take a look at what was swarming around instead of "their fleet has been gutted by a surprize attack"?
Or even ask Beowulf what their information was? You could always compare Beowulf's answer to agent's oversvation?

After Monica, then Byng and then Crandall, somebody at SLN might have thought
....gee, Manticore just beat all those recycled/upgraded BCs at Monica, destroyed Byng and captured his fleet and then DESTROYED Crandall's fleet at Spindle.....and had recently destroyed or captured a couple of Haven fleets attacking the Manticor Home System and have just had some "party unknown" trash their infrastructure.....I bet if we throw 300 SD at the Manticore Home System, they will just rollover and surrender.
How about.....we should take a look and see just what they now have at home because give what they have been doing to 1) Haven, 2) to our glorious Admirals 3) they should be madder than wet hornets who's nest has been wacked, and 4) The RMN doesn't back off in face of adversity, they have always fought like Spartins and THIS IS THEIR HOME SYSTEM THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN ATTACKED TWICE IN THE LAST X MONTHS AND THEY COULD BE A BIT ANNOYED AND MOTIVATED TO DO SOMETHING STUPID LIKE FIGHT LIKE SMART RABID DOGS WITH THOSE WEAPONS THAT CAN'T EXIST BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THEM BUT SEEM TO BE DOING THE JOB JUST FINE IF WE HIT THEM NOW?

Nobody calculated the probability of what the damage/losses would be sending the task force (in various pieces dependent on number ships vs. wormhole recover time) till they go anyting in the than small pieces that made it beyond the recovery time for the ships and crews post transit such that they could start to defend the ships, let alone take offensive action against mines/forts and whatever warships might be around?

No, appently not. Either that or the idea of loseing ?dozens? of SD and crews in batches (spread over intervals of Y times between transits alowing for defender to regroup) forcing the wormhole was an acceptable cost to achieve victory.

And nobody (from Astro Control) might have had several freighters take a messge thought to the Manticore side of the wormhole that there appeared to be 100+ of somebody's SD heading this way and there was only one plausable reason for that.....wake up and tell the guys in fire control they are about to have some targets? Remember, particulary just before Fillerta attacks, the BSDF commanding Admiral has already said they would fight you if you attempt to do this, why don't you think the people on the other side of that wormhole arn't going to be locked & loaded and ready for you (armed, hot, ready and with massivly layer mobile defences in depth) ?

Just saying.

Then there is the distinct possibility that the Alignment has people who have twisted and manipulated both the information used, the plans made and circumvented prudent policy to keep from using reality, prudent recon and something other than "We're the SLN, surrender of die" as a recipe for victory.

Yeah, I smell Alignment screwing around here.

We already know that Rajampet set things up as a payback for a MAlign bribe. Also bribed were Crandal and Filereta.

So yes, the "Alignment was screwing around here." No doubt about it.

Don

-

n7axw wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:The whole attach through the Wormhole discussion. What do we have and not have?

What we have been shown so far is that at the majority of wormholes in the SL and the Verge don't seem to have much more than a local Astro Control and a few customs (old style SL type) LACs at them. Once in a while (that exchange in the start of Lacoon I) a SLN warship is near a terminus....ONE ship. Not much is mentioned of anybody fortifying or mining their terminus except Manticore and they intialy just have that at the Junction---and for that the time frame is post Haven taking San Martin and so holding the San Matiin end of that terminus to the Junction.

Come forward. MANTICORE has been for years partially replacing warships at the Junction and at the termini with Forts in addition to some warships and expanding the minefields. The minefifelds may or may not be in place at all of the Junctions termini but the forts are as well as local station warship patrols. In addition, SEM has those nifty new variations of LACs which they can use from & in addition to the forts so there is a lot more manuverabity in applying force. The stratage here appears to make the exit lanes a killing zone with mines backed up with the forts (which rotate on/off duty in whatever cycles) instead of warships (tougher, not hyper capable, larger). Then there is the LAC & RMN Naval contingent which is primarily to defend againt attack from normal space after hyperspace transit to clear the defences away and allow transit fo other forces.

Ok.....theoreticaly the maximum transit capacity or one transit and wormhole recover time is known (if not openly published) for each wormhole. Along with that would be at least a calculation of "if you put X amount of shipping through, you need Y amount of time before the next transit" so you have differenent recovery times for a DB vs a 6million ton ship and run that up through various amounts of tonage.
Certainly Beowulf (as part owners of the Sigma Draconis terminus) has at least that much information on it's own wormhole. Would have been interesting to have mentioned if they had given that bit of information to SLN when initaly approched to shove SDs through it.
Various ONI (at least) should be gathering and compiling that info for their own use (offense/defence/just logistics of getting here-to-there. Yes, we see the RMN BC Captain wishing he had that and other information on the LAST bridge used he had already come through ?how many? and apparently had no difficulties (persume either knew what was the capacity/recycle rates/what should be on the other side).

SLN has covert operatives in "Newagency) DBs out at the Manticore Terminus and some regular passing of info -the DB itself to be used as the runner go tell the reinforcements when Fillerta comes in and attacks- and why isn't the operatives mention to home office that there are all these ACTIVE FORTS, odd LACS, still massive mine fields and a crapload of RMN warships out around the Junction.....and it sure seems like business as usual under wartime conditions agains Haven....remember, these people had to get there comping from Sigma Draconis TO the Junction and traveling out through exactly the same lane the SLN force would be comming down. Hell, you could have run a covert operation freighter with massively better than usual passive sensors through and dumped the data from retrival and passing back. Nobody though of that?

Nobody at SLN thought that perhaps they could run a covert operation on a nutral freighter into the Manticore home system delvering stuff and take a look at what was swarming around instead of "their fleet has been gutted by a surprize attack"?
Or even ask Beowulf what their information was? You could always compare Beowulf's answer to agent's oversvation?

After Monica, then Byng and then Crandall, somebody at SLN might have thought
....gee, Manticore just beat all those recycled/upgraded BCs at Monica, destroyed Byng and captured his fleet and then DESTROYED Crandall's fleet at Spindle.....and had recently destroyed or captured a couple of Haven fleets attacking the Manticor Home System and have just had some "party unknown" trash their infrastructure.....I bet if we throw 300 SD at the Manticore Home System, they will just rollover and surrender.
How about.....we should take a look and see just what they now have at home because give what they have been doing to 1) Haven, 2) to our glorious Admirals 3) they should be madder than wet hornets who's nest has been wacked, and 4) The RMN doesn't back off in face of adversity, they have always fought like Spartins and THIS IS THEIR HOME SYSTEM THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN ATTACKED TWICE IN THE LAST X MONTHS AND THEY COULD BE A BIT ANNOYED AND MOTIVATED TO DO SOMETHING STUPID LIKE FIGHT LIKE SMART RABID DOGS WITH THOSE WEAPONS THAT CAN'T EXIST BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THEM BUT SEEM TO BE DOING THE JOB JUST FINE IF WE HIT THEM NOW?

Nobody calculated the probability of what the damage/losses would be sending the task force (in various pieces dependent on number ships vs. wormhole recover time) till they go anyting in the than small pieces that made it beyond the recovery time for the ships and crews post transit such that they could start to defend the ships, let alone take offensive action against mines/forts and whatever warships might be around?

No, appently not. Either that or the idea of loseing ?dozens? of SD and crews in batches (spread over intervals of Y times between transits alowing for defender to regroup) forcing the wormhole was an acceptable cost to achieve victory.

And nobody (from Astro Control) might have had several freighters take a messge thought to the Manticore side of the wormhole that there appeared to be 100+ of somebody's SD heading this way and there was only one plausable reason for that.....wake up and tell the guys in fire control they are about to have some targets? Remember, particulary just before Fillerta attacks, the BSDF commanding Admiral has already said they would fight you if you attempt to do this, why don't you think the people on the other side of that wormhole arn't going to be locked & loaded and ready for you (armed, hot, ready and with massivly layer mobile defences in depth) ?

Just saying.

Then there is the distinct possibility that the Alignment has people who have twisted and manipulated both the information used, the plans made and circumvented prudent policy to keep from using reality, prudent recon and something other than "We're the SLN, surrender of die" as a recipe for victory.

Yeah, I smell Alignment screwing around here.

We already know that Rajampet set things up as a payback for a MAlign bribe. Also bribed were Crandal and Filereta.

So yes, the "Alignment was screwing around here." No doubt about it.

Don

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I would bet that Rajampat never actually viewed it like that.