Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

Manticore was building CLACs in ~16 months during the Python lump buildup, finishing 70 in the 10 months between the fleet list and HoS, probably being laid down in early 1919 by Janacheck as the knee jerk reaction to the announcement of Havenite SD(p)s, along with the plethora of EDM combatants completed in early 1920. It is quite possible another 50-70 were completed prior to Oyster bay, giving Manticore 160-180 CLACS in 1922 when you include the 42 completed before March 1920. S0 I'm not certain Manticore needs more CLACS - they probably need more LACS just to fill the deployments they have.

I doubt the Havnite yards are up to snuff to make Manticorian ships. We'll see Warlords and Mars classes with Manty add-ons - and those will slowly roll out as the research teams develop Manty systems that Havenite yards can build.


Even when the Manty yards come back online in early 1924, We probably see new designs - or at least uupdates of current designs over reproductions - reflecting the many lessons learned only by building items and watching how they are used.

n7axw wrote:Manticore avoided having its new SD(p)s caught in OB which gives them a leg up in the pursuit of the war. They were working up at Trevor's Star. I haven't seen any exact figures on Manticore's current strength of modern wallers, though. Does anyone else know?

David is always vague about that until it's needed.

He did mention something about having lots of spare CLACs and using them to transport LACS to Talbott, but I can't remember if he said how many.

n7axw wrote:Manticore avoided having its new SD(p)s caught in OB which gives them a leg up in the pursuit of the war. They were working up at Trevor's Star. I haven't seen any exact figures on Manticore's current strength of modern wallers, though. Does anyone else know?

Don

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IIRC, It's never been stated by David, either here, or in text. The assumption is the "Python Lump", as David put it, is at least 200 ships, as this was the # of wallers simultaneously under construction during the late days of the 1st war (199 Medusa and Invictus wallers were under some phase of construction at the same time in 1914.)

Out of the 1st war build, 116 SD(p)s finished construction, with Manticore losing ~70-75 of them in the 1st war. (one data point we have is that there are exactly 20 Medusa Class ships without the keyhole upgrades which survived the Havenite war - they are the SD contingent of 10th Fleet).

So If we are correct, Manticore should have ~250 SD(P)S in service in Fall 1922- but that is really just an informed guess, and David can change that at any time.

Theemile wrote:

n7axw wrote:Manticore avoided having its new SD(p)s caught in OB which gives them a leg up in the pursuit of the war. They were working up at Trevor's Star. I haven't seen any exact figures on Manticore's current strength of modern wallers, though. Does anyone else know?

Don

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IIRC, It's never been stated by David, either here, or in text. The assumption is the "Python Lump", as David put it, is at least 200 ships, as this was the # of wallers simultaneously under construction during the late days of the 1st war (199 Medusa and Invictus wallers were under some phase of construction at the same time in 1914.)

Out of the 1st war build, 116 SD(p)s finished construction, with Manticore losing ~70-75 of them in the 1st war. (one data point we have is that there are exactly 20 Medusa Class ships without the keyhole upgrades which survived the Havenite war - they are the SD contingent of 10th Fleet).

So If we are correct, Manticore should have ~250 SD(P)S in service in Fall 1922- but that is really just an informed guess, and David can change that at any time.

As noted earlier, David has learned. There are all sorts of reasons for variations in numbers. Better to leave it vague.

The simple thing is that there are enough to essentially destroy the entire Sollie fleet if necessary.

And the Sollie losses would be beyond belief.

Having vague comments about what Manticore had and didn't have post Oyster Bay is frustrating.
How about some of the things that they should have had? They were shuttleing CLACs to Talbott to drop off whole wings of LACs to systems there for system defense. That raises the question of which wings those were? Were they the Wings (LACs, crews, and non CLAC support personnel) that had been attached to the CLAC delivering them which will go back and pick up another or is the CLACs doing this newly commissioned ships and are being used as LAC transports similar to a way Escort Carriers were used by the US and Britian in WW II to ferry aircraft across oceans they couldn't fly over. That came in two flavors of transport. One was to load of fly on the aircraft and then fly them off at the deliver destination. Flavor two was to just load them on in one port and unload them at the destination port. Stuff the hanger and probably part of the flight deck with aircraft.

So where are/were all these LACs comming from? Factores, sure, but where are they and thier crews working up? Are there now older CLACs being used for training and working in areas of the Manticore Binary Systems? The best way to do that would be to fly the LACs to the ships from wherever the crews pick them up and then train. Launch, recover, run simulations and training missions with the CLACs always moving and changing what is going on. Not exactly something that would be a "sitting" target as were most of what the OB weapons were deployed against.

How many Wings are in training? How many training squadrons are there set up to feed LAC crews to wings being formed for New CLACS (or ships like the Charles Wilson) or System Defense Squadrons/Wings? How many are being trained as replacements for existing LAC squadrons/wings already deployed with the Fleets or in places like the Junction or the various termini?
If a most current version of a RMN CLAC has say 110 LACs (12 Squarons of 8 plus spare craft) and you have "only" 8 or 9 CLACs running transport duties suttling LACs to deployments in Talbott, how many were deployed in training/ working up with either CLACs or for System Defence commitments?

Now that everything for the LACs have to be made somewhere other than Manticore or Grayson, is there going to be enough producton of LAC components and weapons to meet the needs of replacement parts, repacemet weapons & munitions, new LAC construction (to present standards) for System Defense, CLAC Wing replacements, etc. And, of course, the Crews, LAC maintenance servicing/repair & support.

Unless the LACs and crews being trained were actualy based on the major stations and whatever smaller ones that were hit, much of that component is still intact and available to keep training the crews and support personnel.

And just for fun, think of how much tactical sensor activity is going on when you have perhaps 20 CLAC working up for deployment and another 20 odd doing live basic throuh mid-level training with LAC wings/squadrons and running exercises hunting down warships and freighters (and other LACs) around the Binary Stars. Perhaps even out practicing being sneaky around the WHJ and getting practical experience near and in a cluttered enviornment full of warships and commercial traffic? Fun.

The main bases for the RMN; the equivalent of every base near Norfolk, San Diego and Pearl Harbor; were on the three platforms.

Its extraordinarily likely that every activity of the RMN, from construction, design, manufacturing, R&D, and training was badly hurt. About the only part that wasn’t was the huge bureaucracy.

kzt wrote:The main bases for the RMN; the equivalent of every base near Norfolk, San Diego and Pearl Harbor; were on the three platforms.

Its extraordinarily likely that every activity of the RMN, from construction, design, manufacturing, R&D, and training was badly hurt. About the only part that wasn’t was the huge bureaucracy.

Absolutely: but -

1) The RMN has a long-standing policy of rotating technical track officers and ratings between the yards, research and the ships. It's quite likely that BuPers is busy trying to find surviving officers and ratings who did a tour on the yards.

[It's also quite likely that the reason Ginger Lewis found herself Captain of the Charles Ward is that she'd only just started her first research tour and had never been in the yards. She wasn't needed to instruct the new trainee yard/research workers, and she was needed to captain a ship.]

2)While Manticore and Grayson were badly hurt, Beowulf and Haven weren't even touched. Beowulf, especially, is less than a day away through the Junction. Their research staff and manufacturing capabilities are now part of the Grand Alliance.

3) And then there's the brand-new Talbott Sector, who are already supplying huge numbers of army personnel, and would be eager and willing to supply personnel to be trained in yard work. RFC already hinted via Mike that the Talbott Sector is going to be a resource, not a drain.

Essentially, if want to think of an Earthside analogy it's more like WW2, with the main naval bases in the UK (Manticore) and Hawaii (Grayson) having been bombed to smithereens. But the enemy didn't reach those allied bases on the Continental US (Haven, Talbott, and probably Beowulf). And the enemy also didn't succeed in killing those millions of warm bodies who were trained very quickly to produce the needed armaments.

cthia wrote:Duckk says: unmarked spoilers.

There seems to be little doubt (at least in our community) that at least one line will be crossed. The Yawata strike clearly crossed that line already (not the Eridani one, but the Manties are clearly pissed and are taking the offensive more).

And, yes, Yawata was by a different group, but a lot of people on Manticore don't know that...or at least it's not clear.

The fecal matter will soon hit the impellers. Stay tuned for the eArc.

It is my understanding that most of Trevor's Star is a closed military zone with warning buoys and posters on just about every wall of orbiting platform. As we are all well aware, a stat system is a vast place.

Black Victor is a great believer in simulator training. Ya think maybe Manticore has developed flight simulators for training purposes?

It was my understanding that the CLACS ferrying Lacs to Talbott were just that: ferries, except that Kumhalo backstopped some when he heard Crandall was in town.

ldwechsler wrote:

cthia wrote:In reading the blurb of UH, placing Honor in the driver's seat enroute to the Sol system, I wonder if the implications are akin to tossing the Harrington Doctrine in the cultivator?

Or is there a line, that if crossed by the Mandarins/SLN, nullifies the Doctrine? Say like an Eridani Edict violation against some entity in the Haven sector? I do imagine that a transgression on the part of the SLN against the Eridani Edict would give cause to crush them without worry of League members coming to their rescue.

Akin to the Salamander saying "Give me a reason to come after you. Go on gorilla, make my day."

There seems to be little doubt (at least in our community) that at least one line will be crossed. The Yawata strike clearly crossed that line already (not the Eridani one, but the Manties are clearly pissed and are taking the offensive more).

And, yes, Yawata was by a different group, but a lot of people on Manticore don't know that...or at least it's not clear.

The fecal matter will soon hit the impellers. Stay tuned for the eArc.

Whell there's Doctrine, and there's Strategy, and there's Lacoon 1 & 2, and there's Tactics. But then again there's WTF Oh no. Tell me you did not just go there. (Just when I need an emoji with steam billowing out of its ears.)