Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: markusschaber and 34 guests

Information I'd love to know

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by hanuman   » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:57 pm

hanuman
Captain of the List

Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:47 pm

Amaroq wrote:
KNick wrote:
Some points to keep in mind about this battle.

Mike was not trying to destroy Crandel, she was trying to force Crandel's surrender. She did not want to kill any more than absolutely necessary.

None of 10th fleet's officers, from Mike on down realized just how effective the missiles and their fire control actually were. They were trying for mission kills, not outright destruction. They were as surprised by the results as the Sollies.

The Nikes were there in case Crandel did not get the message and pressed on regardless. Only then would they have opened fire.

If it helps, think of this as a variation of what Honor tried to do to Filareta. Same pincer, same intention, same result, just with smaller forces on both sides.


I see your points. It just seems a little risky to start the battle with your weaker ships and then potentially have to scramble to salvage things if the CAs couldn't get it done. Especially, when you consider that the system they were defending was of such importance.

I still don't really understand the motive for not trying to get the most effective attack in first (which would hopefully force the Sollies' surrender). From the MoH quote that Hutch provided the Nikes were going to run the attack before the Apollo pods got there. It was only afterwards that the ops plan switched to the CAs running it with the BCs in a pincer role.


I can't remember whether Michelle specifically mentioned it in her pre-battle planning sessions, but didn't it have something to do with wanting to demonstrate to the Sollies exactly how outclassed they are militarily?
Top
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:30 pm

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:39 am
Location: South Carolina

hanuman wrote:
Amaroq wrote:

I see your points. It just seems a little risky to start the battle with your weaker ships and then potentially have to scramble to salvage things if the CAs couldn't get it done. Especially, when you consider that the system they were defending was of such importance.

I still don't really understand the motive for not trying to get the most effective attack in first (which would hopefully force the Sollies' surrender). From the MoH quote that Hutch provided the Nikes were going to run the attack before the Apollo pods got there. It was only afterwards that the ops plan switched to the CAs running it with the BCs in a pincer role.


I can't remember whether Michelle specifically mentioned it in her pre-battle planning sessions, but didn't it have something to do with wanting to demonstrate to the Sollies exactly how outclassed they are militarily?


As has already been pointed out, Mike’s primary objective was to get Crandall to surrender, hopefully without killing any more people (even Sollies) than she had to.

She actually had a better idea of how effective the Mark 23 was likely to prove than Captain Zavala had about the effectiveness of the Mark 16 in Storm from the Shadows, but she hadn’t allowed herself to plan on that level of effectiveness against Battle Fleet superdreadnoughts based on the performance of Frontier Fleet battlecruisers at New Tuscany. Her battle plan allowed for Crandall's antimissile defenses to do substantially better than they did, yet she never doubted for a moment that she could completely destroy Crandall’s fleet if she had to. For that matter, there was very little question in her mind that the Saganami-Cs in orbit around the planet could have done the job without any additional support using those Mark 23 missile pods.

It was always possible, however, that Dame Estelle might not have been able to goad Crandall into that "maddened bull" charge directly into Terekhov's engagement basket, and the Nikes would have been much more capable of looking out for themselves if Crandall had been smart enough early on to break off her approach to the planet. If she’d begun accelerating at right angles to her base vector the instant she detected Maik’s alpha translation, she could have pushed the engagement envelope to a range from the Mark 23s deployed in planetary orbit at which Tenth Fleet’s inability to use Apollo’s FTL capabilities would have severely degraded the amount of damage which could be inflicted. It would have been Crandall’s best bet — assuming she’d been prescient enough to take advantage of it — of getting her fleet out intact and un-surrendered, neither of which was an acceptable outcome from Mike's perspective.

By using the heavy cruisers, who had more than enough control links to handle devastating salvos because each of those links was controlling an entire pod of missiles, as the anvil, she was able to retain the larger and more flexible battlecruisers as the heaviest possible hammer if she needed it. Moreover, there was a psychological element involved. If Crandall realized what heavy cruisers had done to her after the first Mark 23 salvo or so arrived, then she’d probably be a lot more worried about what battlecruisers (which were bigger than any damned battlecruiser she’d ever seen before) could do to her when they came up her backside.

The bottom line was that Mike needed something to use as the anvil and something to use as the hammer and for the reasons given above, she chose to use the Saganami-Cs as the stationary force and the Nikes as the mobile one.

Does that help any?


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
Top
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by hanuman   » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:57 pm

hanuman
Captain of the List

Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:47 pm

runsforcelery wrote:
hanuman wrote:I can't remember whether Michelle specifically mentioned it in her pre-battle planning sessions, but didn't it have something to do with wanting to demonstrate to the Sollies exactly how outclassed they are militarily?


As has already been pointed out, Mike’s primary objective was to get Crandall to surrender, hopefully without killing any more people (even Sollies) than she had to.

She actually had a better idea of how effective the Mark 23 was likely to prove than Captain Zavala had about the effectiveness of the Mark 16 in Storm from the Shadows, but she hadn’t allowed herself to plan on that level of effectiveness against Battle Fleet superdreadnoughts based on the performance of Frontier Fleet battlecruisers at New Tuscany. Her battle plan allowed for Crandall's antimissile defenses to do substantially better than they did, yet she never doubted for a moment that she could completely destroy Crandall’s fleet if she had to. For that matter, there was very little question in her mind that the Saganami-Cs in orbit around the planet could have done the job without any additional support using those Mark 23 missile pods.

It was always possible, however, that Dame Estelle might not have been able to goad Crandall into that "maddened bull" charge directly into Terekhov's engagement basket, and the Nikes would have been much more capable of looking out for themselves if Crandall had been smart enough early on to break off her approach to the planet. If she’d begun accelerating at right angles to her base vector the instant she detected Maik’s alpha translation, she could have pushed the engagement envelope to a range from the Mark 23s deployed in planetary orbit at which Tenth Fleet’s inability to use Apollo’s FTL capabilities would have severely degraded the amount of damage which could be inflicted. It would have been Crandall’s best bet — assuming she’d been prescient enough to take advantage of it — of getting her fleet out intact and un-surrendered, neither of which was an acceptable outcome from Mike's perspective.

By using the heavy cruisers, who had more than enough control links to handle devastating salvos because each of those links was controlling an entire pod of missiles, as the anvil, she was able to retain the larger and more flexible battlecruisers as the heaviest possible hammer if she needed it. Moreover, there was a psychological element involved. If Crandall realized what heavy cruisers had done to her after the first Mark 23 salvo or so arrived, then she’d probably be a lot more worried about what battlecruisers (which were bigger than any damned battlecruiser she’d ever seen before) could do to her when they came up her backside.

The bottom line was that Mike needed something to use as the anvil and something to use as the hammer and for the reasons given above, she chose to use the Saganami-Cs as the stationary force and the Nikes as the mobile one.

Does that help any?


It does indeed, Sir. Thank you for explaining all of that.

Btw, how is the Missus doing?
Top
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by Amaroq   » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:40 pm

Amaroq
Captain of the List

Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:39 pm
Location: Princess Anne, Maryland

runsforcelery wrote:The bottom line was that Mike needed something to use as the anvil and something to use as the hammer and for the reasons given above, she chose to use the Saganami-Cs as the stationary force and the Nikes as the mobile one.

Does that help any?


Yes, thank you, that helps explain things very well. The Nikes would be better suited to that mobile, "hammer" role if push came to shove.
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.
Top
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:15 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8810
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Amaroq wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:The bottom line was that Mike needed something to use as the anvil and something to use as the hammer and for the reasons given above, she chose to use the Saganami-Cs as the stationary force and the Nikes as the mobile one.

Does that help any?


Yes, thank you, that helps explain things very well. The Nikes would be better suited to that mobile, "hammer" role if push came to shove.
I'd started writing up a similar thing before I clicked onto the next page and saw RFC's post.

I think Michelle had precomputed the number of missiles she wanted to fire in her first salvo to damage but not obliterate the SLN force. Then it was just a matter of figuring out which units had to be used to control that many missiles.

Without Apollo she might have needed all her BC(L)s to control that number of missiles she wanted. But with Apollos multiplicative effect she could free them up for mobile use and use the CAs instead. (Since she didn't want to increase the overkill - hard to get dispersing atoms of SDs to surrender)


And even if things went horribly wrong the CAs should never end up within the missile range of the SDs, so using them cut her absolute offensive power with the pods, but wasn't any more defensively risky.
Top
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:53 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

How is it that Honor was assigned a Courageous Class light cruiser and Young was given a Star Knight Class Heavy Cruiser?

What?! :o I want some butts!
http://youtu.be/AS9j_-mqSWc

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by SWM   » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:53 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

cthia wrote:How is it that Honor was assigned a Courageous Class light cruiser and Young was given a Star Knight Class Heavy Cruiser?

What?! :o I want some butts!
http://youtu.be/AS9j_-mqSWc

For one thing, Young got his white beret a lot earlier than Harrington did. You don't generally get a heavy cruiser for your first independent hyper-capable command. Young rose through the ranks fast because of patronage, and this was not his first command. Remember, he was already on the List. Also, Young put every barrier into Harrington's way that he could, which further slowed her progress. It's possible that patronage also influenced which ship Young got, but given the fact that he was assigned to Basilisk despite patronage, I suspect that patronage wasn't a major factor in getting a Star Knight.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:42 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

SWM wrote:
cthia wrote:
How is it that Honor was assigned a Courageous Class light cruiser and Young was given a Star Knight Class Heavy Cruiser?

What?! :o I want some butts!
http://youtu.be/AS9j_-mqSWc

For one thing, Young got his white beret a lot earlier than Harrington did. You don't generally get a heavy cruiser for your first independent hyper-capable command. Young rose through the ranks fast because of patronage, and this was not his first command. Remember, he was already on the List. Also, Young put every barrier into Harrington's way that he could, which further slowed her progress. It's possible that patronage also influenced which ship Young got, but given the fact that he was assigned to Basilisk despite patronage, I suspect that patronage wasn't a major factor in getting a Star Knight.

I know you're right. It just seems wrong. So wrong, on so many levels. The RMN is starved for ships; and over here a Star Knight heavy cruiser is simply ... wasted. Wasted! It fact, it's a double whammy, because if you're not going to use your Star Knight to help solve problems then by Tester's Testament don't be the problem. And Lord, Young was part of the problem. Honor had to fight him and his ship simultaneously while fighting the Peeps. Wrong. Just plain wrong. I wonder, that if we could get a tally of how many ships are wasted that way, what would be the damage. Santino represented wasted ships. How many was in his picket? Waste! As if the Star Kingdom could afford to waste ships.

I wonder how many ships/sizes are wasted. Totally.

It's irretruckinsponsible to all the worthy officers that have died, will die, have seen death and will see death to give a Star Knight to a Young, or a picket to a Santino.

What is that Biblical passage that was repeated by Lincoln? ... "A house divided cannot stand."

If you're short on ships, by God given sense, don't give one to Pavel Young. If you do, Don't Give Him A Star Knight! He doesn't need a Star Knight to turn tail and run!

Sorry. I'm just venting! Sometimes we humans need a whale's blowhole.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:14 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8810
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:I know you're right. It just seems wrong. So wrong, on so many levels. The RMN is starved for ships; and over here a Star Knight heavy cruiser is simply ... wasted. Wasted! It fact, it's a double whammy, because if you're not going to use your Star Knight to help solve problems then by Tester's Testament don't be the problem. And Lord, Young was part of the problem. Honor had to fight him and his ship simultaneously while fighting the Peeps. Wrong. Just plain wrong. I wonder, that if we could get a tally of how many ships are wasted that way, what would be the damage. Santino represented wasted ships. How many was in his picket? Waste! As if the Star Kingdom could afford to waste ships.

I wonder how many ships/sizes are wasted. Totally.

It's irretruckinsponsible to all the worthy officers that have died, will die, have seen death and will see death to give a Star Knight to a Young, or a picket to a Santino.

What is that Biblical passage that was repeated by Lincoln? ... "A house divided cannot stand."

If you're short on ships, by God given sense, don't give one to Pavel Young. If you do, Don't Give Him A Star Knight! He doesn't need a Star Knight to turn tail and run!

Sorry. I'm just venting! Sometimes we humans need a whale's blowhole.

To be fair (much as I hate to do so to a toad like Young) the RMN was seemed far less starved for ships (especially CAs) back during OBS.

They weren't yet at war, not even the sniping and opportunistic Peep raiding seen 4 years later at the start of SVW. Also they hadn't reached the full extent of their alliance, so they had less systems to cover.


Young having a CA is still a waste of a good command slot. But there wasn't necessarily anywhere more critical than Basilisk to have some modern CA stationed.


It wasn't until the war kicked off that all the escorts really got sucked up, leaving places like Silesia critically under patrolled.
Top
Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by SWM   » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:15 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

In addition to what Jonathan_S said, there is the possibility that headquarters specifically wanted one of their best cruisers assigned to Basilisk Station. A lot of people always wanted a larger and more permanent duty station for Basilisk, but they were limited politically. If they could have nothing heavier than a heavy cruiser there, and probably just the one ship much of the time, then they would certainly want the most powerful ship they could get, their newest CA design, fresh off the yards.

That Young was appointed to command it then just reflects the attitude that the station was used to keep certain inconvenient people out of the way. There is no evidence that the rest of the crew of the Warlock were incompetent (and we know at least one definitely wasn't). And Young himself was probably an adequate ship administrator. There was no reason (at the time) that he should not be given a Star Knight.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top

Return to Honorverse