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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:49 pm

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tlb wrote:I thought that it was stated to be physically bigger. But is that enough to be obviously different? Mission of Honor, chapter 4:
But the Mesan Alignment hadn't abandoned it, and finally, after the better part of a hundred T-years of dogged research, they'd found the answer. It was, in many ways, a brute force approach, and it wouldn't have been possible even now without relatively recent advances (whose potential no one else seemed to have noticed) in related fields. And even with those other advances, it had almost doubled the size of conventional hyper generators. But it worked. Indeed, they'd broken not simply the iota wall, but the kappa wall, as well.


Yes, it is bigger. But is that enough to tell apart a modern, big generator from an older, inefficient generator? Freighters are probably used for over 100 years, so finding older generators is not unusual. Plus, there must be hundreds and maybe thousands of manufacturers of generators, so Cheapo Generators Inc. may be making them big to gain economies of scale with cheaper materials.

If such a freighter had come to Manticore and inspected, the inspectors would be chuckling and giggling afterwards about the shoddy manufacture and how theirs is better. If they were so inclined, they'd also be wondering what the manufacturers or owners were compensating for...

That may not fly for a D.B., though. By definition, a D.B. is a fast vessel and space is at a premium. Finding a double-sized generator in a D.B. might raise red flags too early. Note how the streak ship Harahap used was carefully hidden.
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Re: ?
Post by drothgery   » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:43 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:That may not fly for a D.B., though. By definition, a D.B. is a fast vessel and space is at a premium. Finding a double-sized generator in a D.B. might raise red flags too early. Note how the streak ship Harahap used was carefully hidden.

I'd guess a decent cover for a streak DB would be to make any spaces an outsider might see look a lot fancier than they need to be, giving the impression that it's a luxury yacht (the oversize cabins and swimming pool that would go along with that being omitted, of course).
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:20 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:(But you'd want to restrict freighters or other notionally civilian ships carrying it to routes where they aren't subject to search or boarding; wouldn't want someone to steal your super-secret tech :D)


There's another passage that a streak drive is indistinguishable from a regular hyper generator, unless you actually get engineers to dismantle it and inspect how it works. So it was safe to send even to those systems. They wouldn't know what they had.

I'm confused how a generator that is, as tlb points out, about twice as large as normal could be visually indistinguishable from normal hyper generators. (Thanks for that quote, I had misremembered them as being more like 50% larger, not 100%)

Now from external sensors, sure. I can see that watching a streak equipped ship hyper in or out isn't going to alert you that there's anything special about its hyper generator. But I'd have though that the instant anybody even passingly familiar with hyper generators laid eyes on the hardware that they'd have questions. Even if they thought it might be an obsolete old thing they'd probably take a closer look just out of interest in seeing something so archaic in use.
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Re: ?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:39 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Daryl wrote:Don't forget that RFC does use OTL wet navy as a template often. In WW2 navies did use capital ship weapons as part of their anti aircraft suite.
From memory the Japanese were particularly adept. Imagine dodging proximity fused shells from Yamato or Musashi?
Well Japan tried it the most. Of course they didn't have proximity fuses. And unless fired against a tight formation of aircraft an 18.1" AA fused shell is little more effective than a 5" shell would be. In fact, given the AA proximity fuses the Allied did have they figured that it was a bet fit for a 3" weapon than the 4.5" - 5.5" guns they had to use it on because the lethal bursting radius of the 3" high explosive most closely matched the effective range of the proximity fuse. (So the extra lethal distance of a 5" burst was wasted because if the shell didn't pass within the smaller diameter of a 3" shell's lethality the fuse simply wouldn't get enough return to trigger).
And scaling down to a 3" gun lets you build a faster aiming, faster firing, and higher velocity weapon for the same weight of mount; so your AA defenses get better with the smaller weapons (though at the expense of reducing the effectiveness of a dual purpose guns' anti-surface capabilities)

An 18.1" shell would be that problem scaled up to a ludicrous degree. You can't train the gun to track an aircraft, it fires painfully slowly (just a couple rounds a minute), and the fuses of the day couldn't take advantage of it's larger lethal burst radius. But, sure, if it got lucky an a proximity fused 18.1" gun passed within fuse range of an aircraft it would instantly reduce it to chaff.


As for the Sanshikidan 18.1" AA shells the Japanese did use, calling their use "adept" is disagreed with by every USN naval aviator that faced them. They looked fairly impressive; like an enormous flaming firework bursting. But except by purest luck they wouldn't threaten attacking aircraft. (And worse firing the main guns interfered with the more effective AA mounts the ship's carried, so even trying to use the shell was a net loss for Japanese AA effectiveness)

The tactic that may have been a bit more effective was to use the main armament of cruisers, to fire at the ocean in front of approaching torpedo bombers. In theory that broke up the attack by forcing the bombers to try to thread their way through the waterspouts. However I haven't seen any operation analysis on the measurable effectiveness of the tactic.


In my reading (and it might have been somewhere on the Nihon Kalgunwebpages about the IJN) that the Japanese realized fairly quickly that hitting aircraft with an 18.1" shell wasn't terribly practical.

On the other hand, when you send a time-fused AA shell of that size and range out, the burst makes a great way of telling your CAP "LOOK OVER HERE- THEY ARE COMMING FROM OVER HERE!!!!!" Sure, your telling your fighters info by radio but here's a big visual clue. Don't recall anybody ever claimed a kill with an 18' shell on a flying aircrafe. :)
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:52 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I'm confused how a generator that is, as tlb points out, about twice as large as normal could be visually indistinguishable from normal hyper generators. (Thanks for that quote, I had misremembered them as being more like 50% larger, not 100%)

Now from external sensors, sure. I can see that watching a streak equipped ship hyper in or out isn't going to alert you that there's anything special about its hyper generator. But I'd have though that the instant anybody even passingly familiar with hyper generators laid eyes on the hardware that they'd have questions. Even if they thought it might be an obsolete old thing they'd probably take a closer look just out of interest in seeing something so archaic in use.


I think the passage was referring to external sensors. A streak ship does not need anything special on the outside, unlike the spider-drive ship. So if it isn't boarded or if it is and the engineering spaces aren't searched (regular customs inspection may not go there), it may pass as a regular ship.

I speculated (when I mis-remembered the size) that without dismantling, a modern streak generator isn't very different from an obsolete and inefficient generator. They have roughly the same size and outside appearance.
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:56 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:I speculated (when I mis-remembered the size) that without dismantling, a modern streak generator isn't very different from an obsolete and inefficient generator. They have roughly the same size and outside appearance.

Aside from the streak drive, the hyper generator is very mature technology; so I am not sure anyone still has an "obsolete and inefficient generator".
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:17 pm

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tlb wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I speculated (when I mis-remembered the size) that without dismantling, a modern streak generator isn't very different from an obsolete and inefficient generator. They have roughly the same size and outside appearance.

Aside from the streak drive, the hyper generator is very mature technology; so I am not sure anyone still has an "obsolete and inefficient generator".


Hmm... I was thinking of Manticoran miniaturisation, but you've got me thinking. You're right, outside of Manticore the technology may have stagnated so a 100-year-old generator isn't very different from a brand, new.

We don't have evidence either way, though.
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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:49 am

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tlb wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I speculated (when I mis-remembered the size) that without dismantling, a modern streak generator isn't very different from an obsolete and inefficient generator. They have roughly the same size and outside appearance.

Aside from the streak drive, the hyper generator is very mature technology; so I am not sure anyone still has an "obsolete and inefficient generator".


A pre-1902 Grayson ship?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:51 am

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Textev already says that DBs vary greatly in design - size, shape and configuration, because of their various uses. A news courier may look completely different from any other DB. It has to allow for all kinds of equipment. Internally, and, if it parallels current news vehicles, externally. Have you ever paid attention to a news, or weather vehicle? They look like monstrosities strapped with junk.

I imagine the same for Wells Fargo DBs. That goes double for diplomatic boats which may carry a gamut of materials.

Can freighters be given diplomatic status? They can here on Earth. Any vehicle can be a diplomatic vessel depending on what it's tasked to carry. I see no reason freighters would be exempt from diplomatic status. And, freighters might also be known to have the same occasional oddball shape depending on what it's tasked to carry. Good thing vessels don't have to be aerodynamic in space.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:35 am

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tlb wrote:Aside from the streak drive, the hyper generator is very mature technology; so I am not sure anyone still has an "obsolete and inefficient generator".

Theemile wrote:A pre-1902 Grayson ship?

I do not think that they had merchant cargo ships, so that would be a warship? Unless they kept one as a living museum, like HMS Unconquered; they have been very aggressive in replacing all warships with the most modern models.
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