Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:All the graser torpedoes we've seen were spider powered; not impellers at all.

Though Galton did have graser-head missiles which of course do have impellers.

I would call that a graser torpedo also.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Minor reminder -- sails aren't needed to enter (or leave) hyper unless the system lies within a grav wave.

As RFC has noted even reaction thrust ships were able to enter as use hyper. (That's how the hyper-scouts, like Suffren which explored the MBS, surveyed systems in the roughly 500 years between the invention of the hyper-drive and the twin inventions of the impeller wedge and the warshaski sail.)

So the real question is how Spider ships handle grav waves. 'Course we also don't know the answer to that.

Zendikarofthewest wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Minor reminder -- sails aren't needed to enter (or leave) hyper unless the system lies within a grav wave.

As RFC has noted even reaction thrust ships were able to enter as use hyper. (That's how the hyper-scouts, like Suffren which explored the MBS, surveyed systems in the roughly 500 years between the invention of the hyper-drive and the twin inventions of the impeller wedge and the warshaski sail.)

So the real question is how Spider ships handle grav waves. 'Course we also don't know the answer to that.

I mean... they could just *not* handle grav waves, and avoid them completely. The detector for them isn't reliant on the impellers, and its fully possible for them to use hyper without Warshawski sails.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:All the graser torpedoes we've seen were spider powered; not impellers at all.

Though Galton did have graser-head missiles which of course do have impellers.

I would call that a graser torpedo also.

Jonathan_S wrote:All I can say is the MAlign didn't; they called it a graserhead missile.

Though it's not clear if anybody who knew about the spider-drive graser torpedo had input in the naming of the graserhead missile.
After all it appears it was developed at Galton, not Darius. However I don't think Gail considered it a torpedo, as she was wondering why she wasn't allowed to use the stealthier torpedoes in the planned defense of System Alpha.

Brigade XO wrote:Byng was never portrayed as a tactical genius, just a well politically connected position after longish service with not screwing up sufficiently to force higher commands to be able to remove him for incompetence even in the SLN at the time. He was maneuvered into his last command by the Alignments agents in the SL/SLN and used as dupe to cause trouble with a FF fleet which was guaranteed to cause in-service problems and that he was expected to be dangerous to all concerned and hopefully do some damage to RMN in Talbot....that was successful and cost FF not only that fleet but it was a great goad to make that other stellar SLN Admiral Crandall make what ended up being a suicidal call. But I digress......

We know a Spider Drive can operate inside a hyper limit as the G-Torps were using Spider Drive to maneuver into position to attack the various orbital stations in the Manticore Binary System.

Since we don't know HOW a Spider Drive ship can enter, travel and exit hyperspace there are sort of two options. One is that the Spider Drive itself can be reconfigured -with using other equipment something -like an impeller wedge being rigged Sails. The other general option being that a Spider needs to cary the normal impeller/sail equipment or some equivalent and probably have to take the Spider drive off-line to go into hyper using the impeller drive.

Ability to generate enough power to have both systems -even with one needing to be warmed up and held on standby before engaging is going to require a significant amount of power generation (and the equipment and its space to do that).

That brings up an interesting question. How exactly did the Sharks "link up" to effectively appear as one object to go into hyperspace and then appear as one ghost of sensor reading all that distance from the MBS.........and that transition was still enough to be picked by the MBS long range scanners looking for things dropping out of hyperspace?

It gets mentioned from time to time that system scanners looking for impellers note when an impeller vanishes from their screens when an impeller ship goes into hyper- because the impeller signal can't been seen in n-space from a ship in hyper. When a ship exits hyperdrive in the Honorverse, the bleed off of every ship from even a very "low "speed in hyperspace creates a massive energy flair....possibly reads as some sort of point source even if a sensor net is only getting a read on ship numbers from the ships wedge drives as they engage.

But the Sharks were using Spider drive and they DID produce an effect that looked like a sensor ghost at....was it a light month? So is there more happening to anything that is exiting hyperspace that creates a detectable event in emissions?

I suspect the Sharks would have had to had to have been "linked" together quite a bit closer than any ships with Impeller/Sail based systems could be and avoid drive caused fratricide. And they all entered and exited out of hyper LINKED TOGETHER at the same places in a tight group that did NOT look like a multi-ship transition.

Is it possible that the Tractor fields that the Spiders use can be used to hold ships together as a group entering and exiting hyper? That raises the question of what happens when any Spider Tractor Beam from one ship either touched a second ship or a tractor of another ship.
I would expect some spectacular energy or "gravitational" event with one of both of the ships.
You know, caused by a tractor beam powerful to apparently move a ship by grabbing onto hyperspace and haul its ship along in n-space (if I recall the proper description). Just wondering.

penny wrote:No, Byng certainly was no tactical genius. Why the SLN didn't sacrifice him is beyond me. I wonder what his status is now. Still in the navy?

The Sharks linking up is interesting. Conventional warships reconfigure their wedge to form a fore and aft sail. But the wedge runs down the length of the ship top and bottom.

It might be that a spider ship's "gravity band created by the tractors" would be more concentrated or radiates in a single area from the ship. In that case, a spider ship might not be able to reconfigure but for one sail. Thus linking up with another ship to create a second sail aft. Interesting post!

penny wrote:Maybe stealth is the distinguishing feature. Torpedoes -- for the most part like their sub analogues -- are stealthy. Missiles are not stealthy. If true, it would be an error to refer to a missile as a torpedo. Their tactical differences are significant.

tlb wrote:Why do you think the graser beam is hair-thin, when the graser output area is a meter or more in diameter (Thomas Bachfisch's ships had 80 centimeter grasers)?

penny wrote:Well, I can't let you guys let me off the hook so easily. I was actually thinking the beam itself might be visible. At least in segments since I posited a firing duration of 3 seconds giving enough time for the solar wind to blow dust, micrometeorites, etc. into the field.

And of course, I thought the assembly, housing such a massive and powerful graser, would get very hot too; aligning with Thinksmarkedly's thinking.

And the outspalling and reflectivity that Theemile speaks of, I can see being magnified bouncing off back and forth on the shattered debris illuminating it as well. At any rate, I thought the Captain of an LD wouldn't want to take a chance at any tell tale signs of using an energy weapon as opposed to the destruction of the RDs via "slamming into a wall."

I don't think that would give the LD too much of an advantage, rather than making the MAN more than a mere paper tiger or obese gorilla. At least until a spider drive detector is devised. I'm all for letting the MAN run amuck for a few chapters / books just to keep the finale interesting. Go out with a bang.

tlb wrote:Why do you think the graser beam is hair-thin, when the graser output area is a meter or more in diameter (Thomas Bachfisch's ships had 80 centimeter grasers)?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I've always thought of that as a lens. The size of the lens has little to do with the width of the beam itself.

Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington wrote:"Tell me, Ms. Harrington," Elvis Santino said, "is it possible that by some vast stretch of the imagination you actually consider this a competently done job?"

The lieutenant stood in the weapon's bay for Graser Three, the second energy mount in War Maiden's port broadside. He and Honor both wore skinsuits as Regs required, since the bay was sealed only by a single hatch, not a proper air lock. When the ship cleared for action, the bay would be opened to space, the emitter assembly would train outboard, and the powered ram would move the entire weapon outward until the emitter head cleared the hull and could bring up its gravity lenses safely. Honor had always been privately amused by the fact that modern energy weapons were "run out" like some echo of the muzzleloading cannon of Old Earth's sailing navies, but at the moment all she felt was a dull, seething resentment for her training officer.

Chapter 3 wrote:"This, people," Truman said, gesturing once more with the light-pointer, "is the lead unit of the Shrike-class. She masses twenty thousand tons, and, as I'm sure you've noticed," the pointer reached into the HD, "there have been some changes, including the omission of the standard hammerheads. That's because this vessel's primary energy armament is right here." The pointer touched the small ship's sleek prow. "A one-point-five-meter spinal mount equipped with the latest grav lenses," she told them, watching their eyes, "which permits her to carry a graser—not a laser—approximately as powerful as that mounted in our Homer-class battlecruisers."

Gearman sucked in sharply at that. Not surprisingly, Truman thought. Chase energy weapons were always among the most powerful any warship carried, but the graser she had just described had an aperture fifty-six percent greater than chasers mounted in most light cruisers twice her size.

Chapter 49 wrote:The main Peep force lay fifty degrees off the starboard bow for most of her units as they crossed its course, but Farnese was inverted relative to the others. The Peeps lay off her port bow, and all down her left side, heavy graser and laser mounts fired with lethal accuracy. Her impellers and sidewalls came up in the same instant, but Honor hardly noticed. Short as the range was by the normal standards of space combat, it was still over two and a half light-seconds. The massive beams lashed out across the kilometers, and they were light-speed weapons. Despite the range, despite the nerve-racking wait for the people who had fired them, the ships they had been fired at never saw them coming.