UH SPOILERS Harrington family history

I find myself in sympathy with Beowulf. The Detweiler vision for improving humanity goes far beyond the use of genetics for fighting disease or even tailoring people for the environment in which they must live and work. It inevitably must lead to where the current Alignment has taken it; to a rigid caste system where the "improved" stand on the backs of the inferior "normals" who are regarded as at least slightly subhuman.

Consider our present situation which doesn't include genetic modification. Racism is genetically based even though the actual genetic differences betweem Caucasian and African are so microscopic that they are very hard to isolate. Does anyone seriously believe that unabashed genetic manipulation wouldn't produce an even worse and more virilent form of racism than what we are stuck with now?

As for the spiritual aspect, I can only remember the old Sunday school song: "red and yellow, black and white, all are precious in God's sight, Jesus loves the little children of the world" (including you and me )!!!

Don

-

n7axw wrote:I find myself in sympathy with Beowulf. The Detweiler vision for improving humanity goes far beyond the use of genetics for fighting disease or even tailoring people for the environment in which they must live and work. It inevitably must lead to where the current Alignment has taken it; to a rigid caste system where the "improved" stand on the backs of the inferior "normals" who are regarded as at least slightly subhuman.

Consider our present situation which doesn't include genetic modification. Racism is genetically based even though the actual genetic differences betweem Caucasian and African are so microscopic that they are very hard to isolate. Does anyone seriously believe that unabashed genetic manipulation wouldn't produce an even worse and more virilent form of racism than what we are stuck with now?

As for the spiritual aspect, I can only remember the old Sunday school song: "red and yellow, black and white, all are precious in God's sight, Jesus loves the little children of the world" (including you and me )!!!

Don

-

Kudos Don! This conversation raged within my social circles of Celerians quite a while ago. Your input would have been quite nice. The racism has already manifested itself in the fact that most genies tend to want to hide their heritage. See the Harringtons. It may come from a stereotypical "Rub my bottle and you'll get an angry genie" syndrome. Now. As opposed to fears of the Final Wars at its core. It is a bit of information that I think the Opposition missed, which could have damaged Harrington in a brilliantly executed anti-Harrington propaganda campaign of "loose cannons." Now that I consider it, the Malign also missed an opportunity of not disseminating that information to the Opposition to use as fuel. But then that would have been counter to heeding "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

At any rate, a group of us came to refer to Malign tampering as engineering too wide a divide. Spiritual or otherwise.

SLneezy wrote:snip

Sure weaponizing the human genome needs to be done with care (in the same way nukes are treated with care). At the same time the process can be extremely beneficial (just like nuclear research has been).

The serious difference being that mankind is still having its problems with nuclear technology even now. See the many disasters. These disasters, and there may be more forthcoming, have taken lives. The same cataclysmic error in malignant research can claim the lives of the entire human race. The stakes are Apples and Oranges.

At any rate therein, alone, lies a catch 22. I don't think the Malign are proceeding cautiously. Even if caution is enough. Especially not when the wastebasket is full of failed attempts. They are unregulated. Unmitigated. Uncaring and unfeeling, so vehemently saith Simoes. At least this is the MO of the present malignants. How can one think the Malign have the whole of mankind's best interest in mind when they hardly care for the whole of their own?

One of my Romanian friends asked an interesting question. "Who among us who are sympathizers with the Malign, would actually be sympathizers if the fear of the Final Wars was actually a part of your psyche and experience, and happened in your own back yard as did Hitler?" I don't hear anyone sympathizing with Hitler. He had the same lofty goal of the betterment of mankind. The difference is, it was in our own solar system and the horrors were real for us, the fears were real for us.

Take a moment. Close your eyes and try to imagine the real fear in the Honorverse during the Final Wars. Afraid to accept ships in your system because they may carry a plague much worse than Ebola. Afraid of your own shadow, because mankind may be lost in a shadow of itself.

P.S.

If Beowulf is not fit to suggest limits and caution to the research, then who is? The Malign? Would you really want the Malign to be self-regulating even if they had it within themselves to regulate, in your neck of the woods? An entity who absolutely has no governors emplaced at all? Then who would be my keeper, when I cannot keep myself?

At All Costs is their motto.

.

So long as there are difference in people, there will be a temptation toward prejudice and bigotry. Is the answer to eliminate all differences? That appears to be the extreme conclusion of Beowulf's position against genetic uplift. That position appears to hold that so long as ubermensch are around, they will seek to dominate the untermensch. The ONLY solution then is to eliminate all possibility of ubermensch.

I find that solution morally suspect. Ubermensch can overcome their temptation towards bigotry. Jack McBryde and Honor Harrington are prime examples. How best to address the moral struggle is another question. The current discussion revolves around whether allowing the possibility of uplift will necessitate a morally inferior result than continuing to not allowing it.

The GMA appear to want uplift and that the genetic changes will eventually supplant non-uplifted genotypes. That goal may never be achieved, but that doesn't mean it is not a worthy goal. Certainly, no one group can stipulate that it should never be attempted.

Do any Malign sympathizers want any of the early research on nuclear energy and the first Nuclear plants to be tested and run in your own backyard?

Well, the entire universe is the back yard when facing an error of the Final Wars kind. Darius could be Chernobyl. Beowulf's control rods may not work again.

PeterZ wrote:So long as there are difference in people, there will be a temptation toward prejudice and bigotry. Is the answer to eliminate all differences? That appears to be the extreme conclusion of Beowulf's position against genetic uplift. That position appears to hold that so long as ubermensch are around, they will seek to dominate the untermensch. The ONLY solution then is to eliminate all possibility of ubermensch.

I find that solution morally suspect. Ubermensch can overcome their temptation towards bigotry. Jack McBryde and Honor Harrington are prime examples. How best to address the moral struggle is another question. The current discussion revolves around whether allowing the possibility of uplift will necessitate a morally inferior result than continuing to not allowing it.

The GMA appear to want uplift and that the genetic changes will eventually supplant non-uplifted genotypes. That goal may never be achieved, but that doesn't mean it is not a worthy goal. Certainly, no one group can stipulate that it should never be attempted.

Pardon my hold to call attention.

I can be coaxed to board this bus except for the highlighted.

We all have a say in playing with fire that can burn us all, and not just your neck of the woods -- the small little parcel of the universe that houses the Dariusian resort.

cthia wrote:

PeterZ wrote:So long as there are difference in people, there will be a temptation toward prejudice and bigotry. Is the answer to eliminate all differences? That appears to be the extreme conclusion of Beowulf's position against genetic uplift. That position appears to hold that so long as ubermensch are around, they will seek to dominate the untermensch. The ONLY solution then is to eliminate all possibility of ubermensch.

I find that solution morally suspect. Ubermensch can overcome their temptation towards bigotry. Jack McBryde and Honor Harrington are prime examples. How best to address the moral struggle is another question. The current discussion revolves around whether allowing the possibility of uplift will necessitate a morally inferior result than continuing to not allowing it.

The GMA appear to want uplift and that the genetic changes will eventually supplant non-uplifted genotypes. That goal may never be achieved, but that doesn't mean it is not a worthy goal. Certainly, no one group can stipulate that it should never be attempted.

Pardon my hold to call attention.

I can be coaxed to board this bus except for the highlighted.

We all have a say in playing with fire that can burn us all, and not just your neck of the woods -- the small little parcel of the universe that houses the Dariusian resort.

If local experiments have no impact on the braoder neighborhood, then the rest of neighborhood can well stay the heck out of local affairs. Until things begin to impact the broader galaxy, they cannot morally coerce complience to their dictates.

The SL did just that with their Protectorate system. They compelled all other star nations to participate in their galactic order. Beowulf hasn't compelled anyone to follow their policy. They have turned non-compliance into the vilest of pejoratives. The difference exists, but neither compulsion nor extreme stigamtization engender dialogue that leads anywhere useful.

cthia wrote:Do any Malign sympathizers want any of the early research on nuclear energy and the first Nuclear plants to be tested and run in your own backyard?

Well, the entire universe is the back yard when facing an error of the Final Wars kind. Darius could be Chernobyl. Beowulf's control rods may not work again.

Many of us don't want a nuclear power plant in our own state or even a few states over, even now.

I truly think the problem is the inability to sympathize with actual people during the Final Wars.

Consider this. You just heard a report on television that a strain of Ebola a thousand times more dangerous to mankind is loose and rampantly causing deaths on your own planet, in your own city, matching the horrors of the Final Wars. Can you smell the feel of fear better?

Now consider that some entity caused the disaster because they were experimenting with it.

Now consider that the WHO (World Health Organization), who saved the planet's bacon, banned the research. You disagree?

Consider also that a thousand times worse than Ebola is some very nasty shit, and we can't flee the planet.

PeterZ wrote:So long as there are difference in people, there will be a temptation toward prejudice and bigotry. Is the answer to eliminate all differences? That appears to be the extreme conclusion of Beowulf's position against genetic uplift. That position appears to hold that so long as ubermensch are around, they will seek to dominate the untermensch. The ONLY solution then is to eliminate all possibility of ubermensch.

I find that solution morally suspect. Ubermensch can overcome their temptation towards bigotry. Jack McBryde and Honor Harrington are prime examples. How best to address the moral struggle is another question. The current discussion revolves around whether allowing the possibility of uplift will necessitate a morally inferior result than continuing to not allowing it.

The GMA appear to want uplift and that the genetic changes will eventually supplant non-uplifted genotypes. That goal may never be achieved, but that doesn't mean it is not a worthy goal. Certainly, no one group can stipulate that it should never be attempted.

As always, your posts are intriguing.

It reminds me of the "racial" divide instigated by some disagreement in the ideology or another created between the Romulans and the Vulcans, that caused them to separate eons ago in their history before coming to realize again that they are kin.