-SPOILER- Uncompromising Honor - Likes and Don't Likes

Weird Harold wrote:

MilSF wrote:But what stage had they gotten to? How exactly is basically sieging the entire League into economic collapse kinder or gentler than a quick, definitive strike that no one could mistake that (as we saw) could be done with little to no casualties?

Take an example from History:

The Japanese started what would become WWII with an invasion of Manchuria in around 1936. Things like the "Rape of Nanking" followed over the next five years, but nobody in the US felt that it was "our problem" in either Europe or Asia.

Then December 7, 1941 came along and the entire US was motivated and mobilized for war.

RFC may have named the Yawata Strike for Pearl Harbor, but the analog for a surprise attack on the "homeland" (aka Core worlds) was the deaths at Beowulf.

Would anyone have known or cared if Nazi sympathizers/spies took advantage of the Japanese attack to firebomb a few Jewish businesses and homes? The IJN would have been blamed for anything that happened on Dec 7th.

MilSF wrote:TL;DR - Honor could have done exactly what she did at the end of this book MUCH earlier and it would have had the exact same effect.

Just finished UH, and the more I think about it, the more frustrated I get. I understand RFC’s points about restraint and a political vs military victory, but ultimately, NOTHING in the book actually mattered or had a material effect on the eventual outcome. HH did exactly what she could have done immediately post BoM (Filareta Edition). Yes she came in full of grief, but in the end, she never went “too far”. The impossibility of the SLN to stand up to her had already been amply demonstrated again and again. The SLN would have surrendered at either point in time. She would have been able to force the constitutional convention either way.

A few specific grumbles:

Truman is not mentioned again after the POV switches to Beowulf in-system POVs. Not even a reaction to Gamma or Beta getting destroyed. No mention of the TF helping cleanup - nothing.

If the MA wanted to send a message with taking out the orbitals in stages, why bother doing it during the SLN attack? Even if the missles went through, everyone on the ground would know it wasn’t them because of the staggered explosions and debris field. The higher ups in the GA would not have blamed the SLN for the destruction.

Silver Bullet seemed very constrained and a touch underwhelming. Not a to-be-feared MA super weapon or anything.

There was 15 minutes between Beta and Alpha going up. And there was no attempt to get the VIPs off? Not even by the fanatical Grayson armsmen?

The Sollie plotlines felt like an attempt at character rehabilitation - especially Kingsford. I don’t remember him being quite so upstanding in previous books and it just seemed like RFC just wanted something in place so named characters could arrest the Mandarins.

Are we to assume that there is omnipresent surveillance EVERYWHERE on Earth? It’s mentioned that Bolton and the fiancée had lunch 7 times at the same table and never said more than hi to each other. That’s some very specific results. I guess it’s one of those “if you want to know, you can find it” kinda things. Just you aren’t supposed to know to look for it.

Why did the Duke’s captain feel it was necessary to take a chance of killing Hamish to get him to Earth? There were no orders to rescind the plan. It in no way affected what HH was going to do. He should have been safe, showed up a day later, and that scene could have played out then. No difference.

I’m confused, has RFC said this is it for the universe, or can we expect a wrap up of the MA in a further book with the Holy Trinity of spies going down the rabbit hole and figuring it all out? I can see this being the end for HH, but this isn’t a minor plot point left undone. It’s the throughline for the past several novels.

Why exactly did we need Hasta? Just to show that they are trying? None of the higher ups in the GA seemed like they were taking the threat of SLN tech advancement lightly anyways. In the end, they were used once and were no more effective than the current missles. They affected the outcome not one whit. After all the buildup, it was a bit of a letdown.

Lots of scenes of GA higher ups and the (good) Sollies sitting around and retroactively figuring out almost EXACTLY what the bad guys were doing or thinking. Any caveats thrown in were kinda limp. Houdini? The Onion, anyone?

The Chekhov’s Gun of literally giving ‘cats guns. Mentioned a couple of times, but never used.

The Maya Sector plot line just kinda fissled out too. I don’t think we even had the Mandarins talking about it very much.

That self-terminate nanotech sure seems to have massively proliferated from previous books. But no more nano-zombies in either the GA or the League.

Once the GA formed, why did the MA think that the League would survive long enough to prevent what eventually happened? Why did they think that any retaliation to Sollie atrocities would be anything less then what happened - an immediate and total capitulation of the League to overwhelming force being brought to bear?

<sigh> I know I am being rather critical and overly negative. I DID enjoy reading it. While in the groove, I was able to suspend my disbelief at least enough to enjoy things like the Death Ride of the Phantom and the Ajay Ambush set pieces quite thoroughly. Taking out the Beowulf orbitals was pretty unexpected, brutal, and impactful - until Jacques and Hamish BOTH survived. HH going to Sol was fulfilling, if a touch anticlimactic.

If this truly the last book to have Honor as a main character, it finished her journey from Basilisk Station to empire-conquering Admiral quite nicely. If RFC takes this as an opportunity to depart for a time or forever from the Honorverse, it’s at least more of a conclusion that’s we are likely to get from GRRM for the ASOIAF books!

pappilon wrote:

Jacob Zavala wrote:On the like side, I enjoyed Wodoslawski escaping arrest at the hands of the Ghost Hunters. I'm hoping this means in future novels or short stories she will show up again to cause trouble, or at least end up nanoteched or pulsered to pieces at the hands of the MA on some Verge planet hideout.

My brain goes the other way. She was never strongly supportive of Kolokoltsov's Machiavellian machinations, IIRC (probably not ). I can see her grabbing her lawyer and Government motorpool issued shuttle and broadcasting a mayday as loud as she can, surrendering herself to Honor and turning states evidence on her cronies.

Jacob Zavala wrote:On the like side, I enjoyed Wodoslawski escaping arrest at the hands of the Ghost Hunters. I'm hoping this means in future novels or short stories she will show up again to cause trouble, or at least end up nanoteched or pulsered to pieces at the hands of the MA on some Verge planet hideout.

pappilon wrote:My brain goes the other way. She was never strongly supportive of Kolokoltsov's Machiavellian machinations, IIRC (probably not ). I can see her grabbing her lawyer and Government motorpool issued shuttle and broadcasting a mayday as loud as she can, surrendering herself to Honor and turning states evidence on her cronies.

Jacob Zavala wrote:I like this idea, but realistically I don't think it would be necessary. They're all probably screwed regardless of if one of them decided to flip. I suppose they have some nasty secrets that Wodoslawski could still reveal, but overall it probably wouldn't have much of an effect on sentencing. They're either rotting in prison forever or being shot.

pappilon wrote:

Jacob Zavala wrote:On the like side, I enjoyed Wodoslawski escaping arrest at the hands of the Ghost Hunters. I'm hoping this means in future novels or short stories she will show up again to cause trouble, or at least end up nanoteched or pulsered to pieces at the hands of the MA on some Verge planet hideout.

pappilon wrote:My brain goes the other way. She was never strongly supportive of Kolokoltsov's Machiavellian machinations, IIRC (probably not ). I can see her grabbing her lawyer and Government motorpool issued shuttle and broadcasting a mayday as loud as she can, surrendering herself to Honor and turning states evidence on her cronies.

Jacob Zavala wrote:I like this idea, but realistically I don't think it would be necessary. They're all probably screwed regardless of if one of them decided to flip. I suppose they have some nasty secrets that Wodoslawski could still reveal, but overall it probably wouldn't have much of an effect on sentencing. They're either rotting in prison forever or being shot.

They got a lot of everybody knows. "Objection, Your Honor, Hearsay." "Sustained."

Bank records showing direct payments from corporate SL? Probably not, lots of money transfered into accounts from somewhere in Silesia or credit chips from Banko de Madrid. Convicting anyone on Sol of accepting bribes? Never happen in a legit Solly court.

Not sure what crimes you can convict the Minister of Education and Information of. Seriously, creating fiction out of reality aka propaganda is just doing his job, not a crime.

Criminal stupidity is not a crime either. Ignoring backwater neo-barbs may be arrogance and/or hubris but again, not a crime.

Can't nail them for Byng or Crandall. Independent command, light decades, centuries even from command central, needs must. Besides those two would have been tossed under the bus.

One conspirator turning on the others plays lots better with jurors than reams of data.

pappilon wrote:
They got a lot of everybody knows. "Objection, Your Honor, Hearsay." "Sustained."

Bank records showing direct payments from corporate SL? Probably not, lots of money transfered into accounts from somewhere in Silesia or credit chips from Banko de Madrid. Convicting anyone on Sol of accepting bribes? Never happen in a legit Solly court.

Not sure what crimes you can convict the Minister of Education and Information of. Seriously, creating fiction out of reality aka propaganda is just doing his job, not a crime.

Criminal stupidity is not a crime either. Ignoring backwater neo-barbs may be arrogance and/or hubris but again, not a crime.

Can't nail them for Byng or Crandall. Independent command, light decades, centuries even from command central, needs must. Besides those two would have been tossed under the bus.

One conspirator turning on the others plays lots better with jurors than reams of data.

Jacob Zavala wrote:Fair enough, but I still think that the fact that Kingsford (and before him, Rajampet), took their orders directly from Kolokoltsov will be enough to sink them in the end, even without testimony from any of the five. Hopefully though, we'll get to see! I'm hoping that the trials will be part of perhaps another novella collection or at least be referenced in a future book.

pappilon wrote:

pappilon wrote:
They got a lot of everybody knows. "Objection, Your Honor, Hearsay." "Sustained."

Bank records showing direct payments from corporate SL? Probably not, lots of money transfered into accounts from somewhere in Silesia or credit chips from Banko de Madrid. Convicting anyone on Sol of accepting bribes? Never happen in a legit Solly court.

Not sure what crimes you can convict the Minister of Education and Information of. Seriously, creating fiction out of reality aka propaganda is just doing his job, not a crime.

Criminal stupidity is not a crime either. Ignoring backwater neo-barbs may be arrogance and/or hubris but again, not a crime.

Can't nail them for Byng or Crandall. Independent command, light decades, centuries even from command central, needs must. Besides those two would have been tossed under the bus.

One conspirator turning on the others plays lots better with jurors than reams of data.

Jacob Zavala wrote:Fair enough, but I still think that the fact that Kingsford (and before him, Rajampet), took their orders directly from Kolokoltsov will be enough to sink them in the end, even without testimony from any of the five. Hopefully though, we'll get to see! I'm hoping that the trials will be part of perhaps another novella collection or at least be referenced in a future book.

I would also like to see it. I suspect we won't. Again The military did not take its orders from Kolokoltsov or the Mandarins. Fanudahi discussed this early on when they met the Gendarme and Other person. Kingsford and Rajani get called in, are asked for a range of military options, choose and approve.

They were blindsided by the operation in Beowulf supporting Filareta as well as his failure to surrender in an obvious tactical disaster. They wanted to interview both Rajani and the admiral about "secret orders" not approved.

Then there's Kingsford berating himself for his naivete over giving orders he hoped his admirals would be smart/brave enough to disobey. More than enough criminal stupidity to go around. And, again, these are SL citizens, and like the trials on Cerberus, wil be held according to Solly Law in Solly courts.

Jacob Zavala wrote:Are we sure about that, though? Honor specifically demanded that the 5 be turned over to her to be tried. And even if they were subsequently tried in a Solly court instead of a combined Manticore-Haven court, it would be a court set up after the new Constitution that was part of the same surrender demands, so theoretically it wouldn't be the same kind of wink-wink nudge-nudge kangaroo justice that so often prevailed in the Solarian League. Hell, even if it wasn't fair, the successors to the Solarian government might end up erring on the side of heavy-handedness, convicting them on every count they can think of and hanging, shooting, and exploding them all at once in an effort to appease the Grand Alliance and avoid having the industry of every core planet blown to hell!

Jacob Zavala wrote:Are we sure about that, though? Honor specifically demanded that the 5 be turned over to her to be tried. And even if they were subsequently tried in a Solly court instead of a combined Manticore-Haven court, it would be a court set up after the new Constitution that was part of the same surrender demands, so theoretically it wouldn't be the same kind of wink-wink nudge-nudge kangaroo justice that so often prevailed in the Solarian League. Hell, even if it wasn't fair, the successors to the Solarian government might end up erring on the side of heavy-handedness, convicting them on every count they can think of and hanging, shooting, and exploding them all at once in an effort to appease the Grand Alliance and avoid having the industry of every core planet blown to hell!