Remaining holes in SLN intel

feyhunde wrote:

drothgery wrote:And when MDMs were just a secret Manty research project, that makes sense. However, they were the decisive weapons in the final battlese of the First Havenite War seven years ago. And were thrown around in immense numbers by both sides in the Second Havenite War. They could easily be skeptical of exact performance numbers, but not realizing Manticore had made some major improvements in missile tech at the end of the first war, and that Haven had largely matched it by the second... I don't think even the SLN would have failed to notice it without active Alignment meddling.

It's actually worse then that. The key development the SLN never felt in its bones was the Laser Head. The SLN hasn't fought a battle with a Waller using laser heads. The result of this is the SLN didn't understand how much more lethal missile combat became.

You see this in their ships. Their SD's are about the size of the last generation of Haven Quadrant DDs. Comparing the Scientist Class to the King William Class, the KW has 8 more tubes per broadside, nearly 4 times the counter missile tubes, and more than double the PD stations.

The King William was built early in the life of the Laser Head, but the RMN actually had a radical design in the King William, with the vast increase in Missile emphasis. Even then, we still had the Senior Leadership as of OBS thinking in terms of energy engagements.

The SLN has only an intellectual appreciation for Laser Heads. To them, its not much different than one of Hemphill's experiments that 'of course we can over come if we see it coming' ala the Thing We Must Not Mention. The Senior Admirals of the SLN like Rajampet are all pre-laser head admirals. Hamish, despite being head of the historical school, worked on Project Gram with Hemphill and actually understood it. Still, it wasn't really until the first war got rolling that the jeune ecole could make its point.

Because the SLN is so much more rigid with Rajampet being frankly, an old man whose still used to doing things how he was a young officer, those making decisions in the SLN don't view Laser Heads as the ship killer they are.

The missile ranges of MDMs, and everything else flows from that. Eg. 'who cares what range a missile has when it really can't kill a waller'.

Boy, that's a really small Solarian SD!
I think you meant DN.

Indeed.

feyhunde wrote:Indeed.

Another reason why the Sollies won't catch up all that fast.
The Manties had moved so far beyond them in so many fields. Not only FTL communication, but missile size, missile control, ship size, laser heads, and probably a half dozen more areas.

There'll be a lot of catching up to do and it won't be quick. And since they're way behind in espionage within the Grand Alliance, it will not be easy to steal secrets. Particularly since it's wartime so any Mantie, Havenite, etc. giving info would be committing treason and the penalties would be draconian.

ldwechsler wrote:

feyhunde wrote:Indeed.

Another reason why the Sollies won't catch up all that fast.
The Manties had moved so far beyond them in so many fields. Not only FTL communication, but missile size, missile control, ship size, laser heads, and probably a half dozen more areas.

There'll be a lot of catching up to do and it won't be quick. And since they're way behind in espionage within the Grand Alliance, it will not be easy to steal secrets. Particularly since it's wartime so any Mantie, Havenite, etc. giving info would be committing treason and the penalties would be draconian.

Parts of Haven have broken away IIRC, presumably with chunks of Haven's tech-base. Also Beowulf has the entirety of the Manty tech-base as far as I can tell, so they could grab that before the secession vote. If they can't come up with a reason and a valid search warrant they're morons. Especially since Beowulf is conspiring with terrorists (Ballroom, Anton and Victor) and keeps on sending their ships to a (ex) slave depot. Also the League is at war now so they also have that excuse.

If they can't come up with a reason and a valid search warrant they're morons.

They're morons.

quite possibly a cat wrote:
Parts of Haven have broken away IIRC, presumably with chunks of Haven's tech-base. Also Beowulf has the entirety of the Manty tech-base as far as I can tell, so they could grab that before the secession vote. If they can't come up with a reason and a valid search warrant they're morons. Especially since Beowulf is conspiring with terrorists (Ballroom, Anton and Victor) and keeps on sending their ships to a (ex) slave depot. Also the League is at war now so they also have that excuse.

Beowulf isn't what you would call defenceless against any official attempt by the League to get at what information will be there reguarding Manticoian tech. While they are still League members the major impediment to the League attempting to serve any sort of search warrent is exactly the problem with the League.
Somehow, it would appear that NOBODY in the League we know of has been looking at what Beowulf- either the government or private industry or various citizens- has been doing that might be of interest to the League and SLN other than making money. You have the example of the Task Force that was supposed to use the SD terminus to support Fillerta. Total shock at both the thought that BSDF would attempt to stop them and no clue that Beowulf and Manticore worked so closely together.
That is not to say that nobody has been interested in Beowulf, just not the League. No even, apparently, all the armes manufactures that sell to the League (or anybody else then perhaps the Alignment) nor just "normal" industrial spying to see what compeditors are doing in hopes of picking up ideas and products.
At this point, a fair percentage of Beowulfian industry is churning out equipment, products and other goods which is falling into two very broad classes. 1st is actual Manticorian tech military hardware (missles, computer systems, sensors, power plants, handling equipment (weapons etc) and probably much of shipsy systems. 2nd is the equipment to replace the lost stations as well as to make the new replacement manufacturing lines and the facilities they will be housed in along with replacement yards.

Beowulf should be almost awash with just ordinary commercial operatives and agents trying to buy or steal information on all that information, designed, processes etc. And, apparently, it isn't. RFC has not bothered to mention it and it SHOULD be a major problem right now for Beowulf, probably larger than League or SLN efforts to get at the same information if only in a covert manner.
Manticore may be keeping it's warships at a distance to avoid appearing to being seen as intimidating Beowulf - and that is purely political, Beowulf is gushing help and support for Manticore as fast as it can create stuff and ship it out. There has to be a major complment of Manticorian security assisting Beowulf keeping all that production of everything from actual Manticore military based techincal production to basic equipment (like civilian grade environmental systems for orbital facilities) secure along with all those people being sent in from Manticore to train on the specific equipment being made or learn how make the machines to make the machines to reestablish the SEM's orbital manufacturing base. Yeah, this is Beowulf helping them (and getting paid for it) rebuild a major competitive manufacturing base but in both the short and long view it is vital to Beowulf as it supports their ability to remain independent. Beowulf also now knows that a number of it's long time trading partners are manuvering against it's interests and keeping (an in it's case rebuilding) Manticore (and it's other friendly partners plus now Haven) strong, it is better able to deal with that.
Beowulf isn't going to let open "legal" manuvering by SL to get at it's industrial base and information happen during the run up to the vote because it can clearly be presented as the same type of pressure the SL will be accusing Manticore of and -by the Beowulfian legal system- enjoined from proceeding untill the results of the referendum are in. All sides can play that game.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Parts of Haven have broken away IIRC, presumably with chunks of Haven's tech-base. Also Beowulf has the entirety of the Manty tech-base as far as I can tell, so they could grab that before the secession vote. If they can't come up with a reason and a valid search warrant they're morons. Especially since Beowulf is conspiring with terrorists (Ballroom, Anton and Victor) and keeps on sending their ships to a (ex) slave depot. Also the League is at war now so they also have that excuse.

Haven allowed every member planet a chance to determine, by public fiat, whether or not they wanted to stay in the new Republic. Most of the systems which left were the newer conquests which hadn't really been a true part of Haven.

So Haven's core systems, which were part of the Republic for centuries, came out pretty much intact. And the "lost" systems? Despite their political independence, their economies are still tied to the Republic, who would be their greatest trading partner. Any economic strength of Haven in fighting a war, would have to include a portion of those independent economies, because Haven can still rely on them to produce goods and raw materials for the Republic.

Bluesqueak wrote:

If they can't come up with a reason and a valid search warrant they're morons.

They're morons.

This is true.

Brigade XO wrote:Beowulf isn't what you would call defenceless against any official attempt by the League to get at what information will be there reguarding Manticoian tech. While they are still League members the major impediment to the League attempting to serve any sort of search warrent is exactly the problem with the League.

The League has law enforcement that allows them to stop and search vessels for at least some reasons. At a bare minimum the Cherwell convention gives them authority to stop and search vessels/stations on suspicions of slave trading. Beowulf literally has people posing as slavers! Using what are presumably Beowulf made ships!

You also have customs which we know has federal level enforcement. (See: Bygn.)

Brigade XO wrote:Beowulf isn't going to let open "legal" manuvering by SL to get at it's industrial base and information happen during the run up to the vote because it can clearly be presented as the same type of pressure the SL will be accusing Manticore of

You don't need to send super-dreadnoughts to serve search warrants. A few lightly armed craft and a handful of marines will do. Performing "normal" law enforcement services that are provided to all member states.

Brigade XO wrote:and -by the Beowulfian legal system- enjoined from proceeding untill the results of the referendum are in. All sides can play that game.

One you don't tell them ahead of time, so they won't be able to intervene. Two, Beowulf's legal system is probably much less corrupt than the Federal level, so they probably can't play at that game.

Three the Feds can point out their obvious legal authority and fly in anyway. Beowulf could blow them out of the sky, but that's going to look great on the news. You'll get something like "Beowulf murders election observers, anti-slavery task force and a Green Pines investigatory team."

Once Beowulf votes itself out of the League, the League's legal system no longer exists there. And, let us note, it is likely that each planet has its own legal system to a large degree.

Every state in the US has its own system and each country in the UN has its own. Separate planets would be more likely to have their own systems...a lot seem to be based on countries they came from on earth.

And if the Solarian navy came in with a whole load of ships pretending to be anything, there would be a real lot of missiles facing them.

A handful of people might be allowed in but very many more would probably get shot out of the sky.

Bluesqueak wrote:
If they can't come up with a reason and a valid search warrant they're morons.

quite possibly a cat wrote:
They're morons.

Saying the Sollies are morons is an insult to morons