WAR ROOM

Sigs wrote:

cthia wrote:An Aside:
Did Haven take a big risk sending away that much of Capital Fleet? I wonder if the MAlign had been on the ball if they could have exploited that fact?

I doubt that they took a big risk as they have been at war with a determined foe for close to 20 years and preparing for it much longer. Chances are that their fixed defences alone are a very tough nut to crack especially for the SLN if not outright impossible for the SLN. And even though 2/3 are gone it still leaves over 100 SD(P)'s at home.

As for the MA? There wouldent be any time for them to move in and get anything set up. No one would have guessed that Haven and Manticore would bury the hatchet and make peace so even if the MA had the ships and resources to dispatch to attack Haven, they would not have the time to do anything of the sort before a good chunk of the fleet makes it back home.

As for the Grand Fleet, at the moment Haven represents a good chunk of the Allied wall so I doubt they would withdraw all of their units, likely they recalled any nodal forces and rebuild Capital Fleet from there. As the war is shaping they don't have the luxury of not having the ships they need ready should any opportunity arise so having the Grand fleet split by tens of light years might be a bad idea because any opportunity comes up by the time they consolidate a force of any kind it would be too late. Plus if I remember correctly, there were ~200 SD(P)'s protecting the Beowulf Terminus and I doubt they are Manticoran or Grayson units as that seems to be a good % of their total fleet unless those SD's are old style wallers.

Sigs, I keep forgetting how far ahead in hulls the Havenites bolted out of Bolthole with. It is equally shocking that the Manties were all poised to go swashbuckling right through them. Apollo is a God!

Theemile wrote:Well, a CLAC itself as the long range missile firepower of a DN, and more accel than a DD, so it can outrun anything the SLN tries to catch her with. If it has pods available, it can probably tow ~300, and can probably throw salvos of ~200 missiles (1600 Apollo attack missiles), so even with old missiles, it can probably mission kill a SLN SD every salvo. So I'd say a CLAC itself can kill ~10-15 SDs easy.

When you say the CLAC has the missile firepower of a DN you're assuming a Roland-style launch from both bow and stern chase tubes vs the classic single broadside from the DN; right? (I didn't put that together initially and was confused)

Most DNs seem to have a broadside in the 28-33 tubes. A Minotaur-class CLAC can throw 2x9=18 MDMs per salvo. A newer Hydra-class can throw 2x12=24 MDMs. OTOH the Graysons deleted all offensive missiles from their Covington-class; and I'd suspect Haven did the same... So it depends on which CLAC is there. Also the DN would have far deeper magazines; so be able to sustain its fire longer.

(Not only does Haven try to cram as many LACs was possibly in, but last we heard their MDMs were too big for any of their ships to carry tubes for them; they were exclusively pod launched)

Still a Hydra could ruin several SLN's SDs days, even if it, or it's likely escorts didn't have pods in tow.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:Well, a CLAC itself as the long range missile firepower of a DN, and more accel than a DD, so it can outrun anything the SLN tries to catch her with. If it has pods available, it can probably tow ~300, and can probably throw salvos of ~200 missiles (1600 Apollo attack missiles), so even with old missiles, it can probably mission kill a SLN SD every salvo. So I'd say a CLAC itself can kill ~10-15 SDs easy.

When you say the CLAC has the missile firepower of a DN you're assuming a Roland-style launch from both bow and stern chase tubes vs the classic single broadside from the DN; right? (I didn't put that together initially and was confused)

Most DNs seem to have a broadside in the 28-33 tubes. A Minotaur-class CLAC can throw 2x9=18 MDMs per salvo. A newer Hydra-class can throw 2x12=24 MDMs. OTOH the Graysons deleted all offensive missiles from their Covington-class; and I'd suspect Haven did the same... So it depends on which CLAC is there. Also the DN would have far deeper magazines; so be able to sustain its fire longer.

(Not only does Haven try to cram as many LACs was possibly in, but last we heard their MDMs were too big for any of their ships to carry tubes for them; they were exclusively pod launched)

Still a Hydra could ruin several SLN's SDs days, even if it, or it's likely escorts didn't have pods in tow.

Sorry for the confusion, I was thinking specifically about
a Hydra. No one is likely to leave a Covington, Aviary or Astra CLAC alone to secure a system.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:Well, a CLAC itself as the long range missile firepower of a DN, and more accel than a DD, so it can outrun anything the SLN tries to catch her with. If it has pods available, it can probably tow ~300, and can probably throw salvos of ~200 missiles (1600 Apollo attack missiles), so even with old missiles, it can probably mission kill a SLN SD every salvo. So I'd say a CLAC itself can kill ~10-15 SDs easy.

When you say the CLAC has the missile firepower of a DN you're assuming a Roland-style launch from both bow and stern chase tubes vs the classic single broadside from the DN; right? (I didn't put that together initially and was confused)

Most DNs seem to have a broadside in the 28-33 tubes. A Minotaur-class CLAC can throw 2x9=18 MDMs per salvo. A newer Hydra-class can throw 2x12=24 MDMs. OTOH the Graysons deleted all offensive missiles from their Covington-class; and I'd suspect Haven did the same... So it depends on which CLAC is there. Also the DN would have far deeper magazines; so be able to sustain its fire longer.

(Not only does Haven try to cram as many LACs was possibly in, but last we heard their MDMs were too big for any of their ships to carry tubes for them; they were exclusively pod launched)

Still a Hydra could ruin several SLN's SDs days, even if it, or it's likely escorts didn't have pods in tow.

Theemile wrote:Sorry for the confusion, I was thinking specifically about
a Hydra. No one is likely to leave a Covington, Aviary or Astra CLAC alone to secure a system.

Henke has 20 CLACs. What class are they?

How many Covs, Avies or Astras does it take to screw in a Hydra?

Henke is going to have to make some tough calls and detach some of her OB to play fireman.

Hmm I just had a random thought. I wonder how much fire control Manticore stuck on their Hydras... On the one hand they're not supposed to be caught in combat, so devoting enough to handle lots of pods might be considered wasted space or even a temptation to misuse th CLAC. (And having the broadsides full of LAC hangers probably makes space for sensors, point defense, and fire control pretty constrained. Do you want to spend that real estate on extra offense or on defense?)

On the other hand you could equally take the opposite approach and think the ability to flush a ton of pods at someone who tried to mousetrap the CLAC is a good way to distract them until you can fire up the hyper generator and flee.

kzt wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:The Aldermani may be "neutral" as far as the SL is concerned (presumeing that the SLN 1) "knows" that the Aldermani are formaly NOT in the GA as opposed to keeping thime listed as an allied party from the Haven War). That does not quite mean that they couldn't be selling Manticore at least pods with the AN equivelnt of Manti missles from the last point they were formal allies. Depending on when that last tec transfer was made and IF the AN missiles can be controled using RMN commands (and approved AN software patches to let that happen).

Per David, when I asked him about this at Honorcon, the Andies did not have any production capabilities for the Mk23. Immedately after the attack they got full plans, technical data packages and a contact team of Mk23 experts to help them start a production line.

Then Manticore has another source of supply for the MK 23 (or will shortly have it) and ammunition will flow.

cthia wrote:Henke has 20 CLACs. What class are they?

How many Covs, Avies or Astras does it take to screw in a Hydra?

Henke is going to have to make some tough calls and detach some of her OB to play fireman.

10th fleet is an RMN organization, so mostly (if not all) Minotaurs and Hydras, and >80% of the RMN carriers are Hydras.

The Covingtons, Astras and Aviaries are "Fleet Carriers" - ie they are designed to support a fleet. In a battle they drop off their brood and remain out system with some defenders or jump back into hyper. They have defensive suits, but no offensive weapons and really have no business taking fire or being exposed to it. No one would leave a strategic unit like one of these CLACs without serious escorts.

RMN designs are more of "Assault Carriers". Following the RMN doctrine that every warship is a generalist, they mount serious weapons, if light for their size, and can operate safely without an escort with active defenses greater than that mounted on the last generation of RMN tube SDs. However, the doctrine is not to hazard them unless necessary, though they do escort waller fleets into battle, where their serious defenses (from the far side of the wall), can assist.

Experience taught the RMN that one of these should never get in an energy battle, and the final iteration, the Hydra class, nixed the energy mounts, and mounted more defense, more tubes, smaller capital magazines, and 12 more LAC bays on a slightly smaller hull.

The Minotaur class is a group of ships where no 2 were the same; as new points from the battle of Hancock were found and analyzed, they were addressed in the next units under construction, and the Hydra was the point where the design solidified.

AS for LAC count:

Minotaur - 100
Hydra - 112
Covington - 124
Astra/Aviary - 200-250

Haven assigned ~2 Astra/Aviary CLACS to combat every Minotaur/Hydra LAC contingent (or around 5 LACs for every 1 RMN LAC). So at least 3 Astra/Aviaries would be needed to take out 1 RMN CLAC and brood. If pods are available, more.

Since they are based on the same tech, a Covington's brood will usually beat a Minotaur/Hydra's smaller brood, but probably losing enough units so as not to allow it to overwhelm a RMN CLAC and it's vipers and MDMs. It would take 2 Covingtons to safely take both a RMN CLAC and it's ACCs

As JonathanS pointed out, we really don't know how many extra control links a Hydra has. While it probably doesn't have the ~400 a Medusa has, we can assume that it has the ability to stack salvos, like all other construction - if so, it has at least 75 control links. The 200 I threw out earlier is just a WAG based on size, but reduced to remove the impulse to use it as a true waller. Most likely, the number of control links is somewhere between the 2 numbers.

quadruple launches seems to be the standard and as they have 12 chase tubes i'd guess they can control 48 missiles. maybe a bit more it is the size of a DN after all and they probably view the ability to control up to a 100 missiles at ago worth giving up room for a couple of LACs .

of course those slots fire control slots might be Mk23Es with 8 other Mk23s following, so could be nearer the 400 mark.

just no way to tell without more info.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:Henke has 20 CLACs. What class are they?

How many Covs, Avies or Astras does it take to screw in a Hydra?

Henke is going to have to make some tough calls and detach some of her OB to play fireman.

10th fleet is an RMN organization, so mostly (if not all) Minotaurs and Hydras, and >80% of the RMN carriers are Hydras.

The Covingtons, Astras and Aviaries are "Fleet Carriers" - ie they are designed to support a fleet. In a battle they drop off their brood and remain out system with some defenders or jump back into hyper. They have defensive suits, but no offensive weapons and really have no business taking fire or being exposed to it. No one would leave a strategic unit like one of these CLACs without serious escorts.

RMN designs are more of "Assault Carriers". Following the RMN doctrine that every warship is a generalist, they mount serious weapons, if light for their size, and can operate safely without an escort with active defenses greater than that mounted on the last generation of RMN tube SDs. However, the doctrine is not to hazard them unless necessary, though they do escort waller fleets into battle, where their serious defenses (from the far side of the wall), can assist.

Experience taught the RMN that one of these should never get in an energy battle, and the final iteration, the Hydra class, nixed the energy mounts, and mounted more defense, more tubes, smaller capital magazines, and 12 more LAC bays on a slightly smaller hull.

The Minotaur class is a group of ships where no 2 were the same; as new points from the battle of Hancock were found and analyzed, they were addressed in the next units under construction, and the Hydra was the point where the design solidified.

AS for LAC count:

Minotaur - 100
Hydra - 112
Covington - 124
Astra/Aviary - 200-250

Haven assigned ~2 Astra/Aviary CLACS to combat every Minotaur/Hydra LAC contingent (or around 5 LACs for every 1 RMN LAC). So at least 3 Astra/Aviaries would be needed to take out 1 RMN CLAC and brood. If pods are available, more.

Since they are based on the same tech, a Covington's brood will usually beat a Minotaur/Hydra's smaller brood, but probably losing enough units so as not to allow it to overwhelm a RMN CLAC and it's vipers and MDMs. It would take 2 Covingtons to safely take both a RMN CLAC and it's ACCs

As JonathanS pointed out, we really don't know how many extra control links a Hydra has. While it probably doesn't have the ~400 a Medusa has, we can assume that it has the ability to stack salvos, like all other construction - if so, it has at least 75 control links. The 200 I threw out earlier is just a WAG based on size, but reduced to remove the impulse to use it as a true waller. Most likely, the number of control links is somewhere between the 2 numbers.

Awesomely informative post. Thanks Theemile.

Can the "Fleet Carriers" just as easily be given a loadout of emergency pods tractored inside its wedge?

.

Is it possible to equip a stealthy drone with the ability to broadcast on Free Public HD frequency and get it in close enough for Honor to address the planet whatever tame and disarming rhetoric she may say? Or perhaps several of them so they can bounce the signal around to prevent the SLN from localizing long enough for the broadcast?