Honorverse system destroyer

Potato wrote:Just how damn dense are you? The physics do not work like that! RFC clearly explained how the wedge is formed and how it works. Stop making up your own shit and read (and comprehend!) the fucking novels.

I think I know there Skimpers idea regarding Bubble wegdes might have its origin. In HotQ, there is a scene, where some Grayson politician or admiral asks about bubble screens or something similar ... ah, just got it!

HotQ, Chapter 22 wrote:"I don't think they could have turned Blackbird into any kind of real fortress," Matthews said quickly. "Not unless they can generate a sidewall bubble around a moon eight thousand kilometers in diameter." He looked questioningly at Honor, and she shook her head.
"No, Sir. Not even Manticore can work miracles yet," she said dryly.

So he has at least an excuse, but otoh, if he actually read the books, he should know about that scene ... by the way, that's the only one (at least as I can remember) there something remotely similar to Skimpers fantasies was ever mentioned.

Skimper's idea of reading the books apparently is to shove it under is pillow at night, and hope that the words seep into his brain by osmosis. Unlikely given the density of the braincase.

Eagleeye wrote:

Potato wrote:Just how damn dense are you? The physics do not work like that! RFC clearly explained how the wedge is formed and how it works. Stop making up your own shit and read (and comprehend!) the fucking novels.

I think I know there Skimpers idea regarding Bubble wegdes might have its origin. In HotQ, there is a scene, where some Grayson politician or admiral asks about bubble screens or something similar ... ah, just got it!

HotQ, Chapter 22 wrote:"I don't think they could have turned Blackbird into any kind of real fortress," Matthews said quickly. "Not unless they can generate a sidewall bubble around a moon eight thousand kilometers in diameter." He looked questioningly at Honor, and she shook her head.
"No, Sir. Not even Manticore can work miracles yet," she said dryly.

So he has at least an excuse, but otoh, if he actually read the books, he should know about that scene ... by the way, that's the only one (at least as I can remember) there something remotely similar to Skimpers fantasies was ever mentioned.

Even that's not a wedge though Eagle, a sidewall or bubble wall isn't even close to the gravitic force of a wedge. So even if Manticore does go ahead and figure out how to bubblewall an entire moon eight million kilomers in diameter, it's still not enough force to start messing with stars. It'd be approaching the size to start, since even the largest wedges right now are only 300 kilometer squares, but you'd need orders of magnitude more force to start down that road.

skimp
Also found in: Thesaurus, Medical, Legal, Idioms, Wikipedia.
skimp (skĭmp)
v. skimped, skimp·ing, skimps
v.tr.
1. To deal with hastily, carelessly, or with poor material: concentrated on reelection, skimping other matters.
2. To provide for or supply inadequately; be stingy with: accused them of skimping defense funding.

Joat42 wrote:skimp
Also found in: Thesaurus, Medical, Legal, Idioms, Wikipedia.
skimp (skĭmp)
v. skimped, skimp·ing, skimps
v.tr.
1. To deal with hastily, carelessly, or with poor material: concentrated on reelection, skimping other matters.
2. To provide for or supply inadequately; be stingy with: accused them of skimping defense funding.

3. Diminutive of David Weber forum member

OrlandoNative wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:And there's the other minor issue that, by and large, RFC populated the Honorverse with people who (if for no other reason than self preservation) aren't interested in launching indiscriminate genocidal attacks...

Actually that's not true. If it were, then the Eridani Edict would not be part of the SL's Constitution...

I think the MA has made their position on indiscriminant murder quite clear. If it helps the cause ... pull the trigger. (not to mention the ballroom -on- Mesa)

Lord Skimper wrote:With multi stage missiles all you need is a big enough for hyper generator and sails massive pod / fire control system. The Multi stage missiles can hit any target inside the hyper limit. Mass fire it once it crashes through and enjoy the destruction.

Then why did a Masadan Battlecruiser have to fight a heavy cruiser to launch an attack Grayson? They didn't seem able to just "sit back and fire".
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OrlandoNative wrote:...translation isn't *possible* within the limit; it's just not survivable for a ship due to gravometric shear forces.

*If* those forces could be "smoothed out" in a small area, then perhaps something smaller, and very "tough", could survive the translation. I think that's what some previous posters are postulating - have the ship in hyper use some means to "smooth" out the gravity gradient in an area just big enough to allow the creation of a transitional tunnel the bomb could fit through...

Exactly.

OrlandoNative wrote:So even if it were theoretically *possible*, it still would have some significant technical problems to overcome. Probably more than the current technology level would allow.

Yes, but as many issues as flying in N-space through a star?
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Weird Harold wrote:...If you can't translate in the outer 20%, what makes you think you can somehow translate inside that distance...

With the "current" tech, that's what would have to be developed, just as FTL coms had to be "developed". Wedges, Sidewalls, Spiderdrives, Grazers, Pulsers, tractor beams, deck plates, FTL coms and even some components of missiles are all examples of Honorverse gravity tech. The same basic technology that overcomes/controls gravity. That same tech could (with development) be used to overcome gravity sheer, just as it was developed to overcome accel. There is no reason to think that it would be impossible to develop a "counter-shear" device. it may develop over time, or just come (light-bulb!) out. The post isn't demanding a "star-killer right 'now' " just how one could be developed, so it may take a century, or not.
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Somtaaw wrote:We don't actually know what happens to a ship, other than the description of: "firing a soft-boiled egg at a brick wall" That would actually imply something along the lines of instantaneous destruction/disintegration of the ship, probably explosively coming apart. And that's for anything doing it within the inner 80% of the hyper-limit zone.

Actually, there would be no "solid wall/you can't go here" to it, it would be a gradual increase of gravitational shearing involved with (roughly) this distance from this size star being the 'limit'. the exact distances would depend on a few other issues such as; is the star in a spot that corresponds to a grav-wave in hyper? is it overrun by the 'funnel/tube' of a wormhole, what is the design of the ship? (obviously an SD can handle much more gavetic stress than a merchie) etc... The actual 'safe distance' can vary depending on other factors.
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Potato wrote:Just how damn dense are you? The physics do not work like that! RFC clearly explained how the wedge is formed and how it works. Stop making up your own shit and read (and comprehend!) the fucking novels.

That's how the CURRENT DESIGN for wedges work, not how the Spider-Drive works! What part of "NEW DEVELOPMENT" do you not understand? The entire sireies has been about "NEW DEVELOPMENTs" from the very first paragraph. original HMS Fearless was an experimental test ship, if you recall, in the second book they found out, not only how to make nodes completely different from how the physics works but also rediscovered fission plants as well. Just because it's "not how it works right now" doesn't mean it's "the only way it can work". The whole point of this forum is to post ideas on "how it can work". If you don't like that then why are you here?
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Somtaaw wrote:... since even the largest wedges right now are only ...

[/quote](key word - since most here are missing it)The "bubble wedge" mentioned earlier was, I think, meant as the Bubble "sidewall" used on forts, which shows that the gravity fields produced by nodes CAN be designed into more than just "big flat square plain of this size" the sidewalls and bow-walls show that too. So, there is no reason to think that no-one can come up with wedges that are of a different shape then those used "right now". There is also no reason to think that another geometric shape may work better (or perhaps works but not as good) than the "current" flat square wedge shape. Maybe someone will develop a hexagonal "wedge" with a slight convex curve that works (or say) 15% better than a flat square wedge. you can't say "it can't be done". Have you personally tried it? no - they don't really exist, so its up to RFC to decide if someone does, not you. As far as "the nodes HAVE to be right here and right here", that is for "current wedge designs" that doesn't mean (again) that a new design couldn't be developed - they certainly are NOT "right here and right here" on a Fort or on a Spider-Drive ship, so there is no reason to think that no-one can develop a different set up or that the set-up on a new wedge design can't require they be place in a different configuration.

Joat42 wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:..snip..
Note that melting isn't a serious factor for a C-frac strike. The question is whether it gets deep enough before it's brought to a stop by all the mass it's running into.

The problem with a C-fractional strike is that any kind of "missile" is going to turn into plasma when it hits the outer layers of a star due to the fact that it will be like hitting a solid wall at those speeds and particle density.

It will probably produce some kind of flare depending on the size and speed of the strike, but I doubt you can make a star go nova.

On the other hand, if you have the technology to shield the missile so it can penetrate deep enough to affect the core you may get some interesting results. Although the missile have to be able to pass through the star and the density is kind of iffy for that. The Sun's core density for example is about 150 g/cm³, ie. about 18 times denser than steel and the radiative zone is between water & gold in density so it's a non-trivial task.

You're not going to get anywhere near the core but you don't need to. The idea is create enough of a shockwave that the fusion it produces becomes self-sustaining.

GabrialSagan wrote:Even if some sort of gravity weapon could be engineered to destroy a star, why would anyone bother? Even 4th rate navies have all they need to destroy any undefended target they want using kinetic and nuclear weapons but with those weapons there is still the potential of reaping spoils from the star system. Destroy the system and then you have nothing to gain.

The cost of developing such a weapon would be extraordinary, for the same price one could probably construct an immense battle fleet to overwhelm their enemies the old fashion way.

There's no need to develop anything. I don't think there's a planet out there, including SOL and Manticore, that would be able to defend against being 9/11ed by a ship with it's engines off. Drop in beyond the detection limit, boost to maximum speed and power down.

MAD-4A wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:... since even the largest wedges right now are only ...

(key word - since most here are missing it)The "bubble wedge" mentioned earlier was, I think, meant as the Bubble "sidewall" used on forts, which shows that the gravity fields produced by nodes CAN be designed into more than just "big flat square plain of this size" the sidewalls and bow-walls show that too.

First of all, the bubblewall a fort generates is NOT it's propulsion, it's a spherical sidewall, which is 100% totally NOT related to propulsion in the slightest.

Secondly, Wedges are so powerful at twisting gravity, in the space of a single meter (you do comprehend how big a meter is right?), gravity goes from the normal space levels to over... I think it's 90,000 gravities in that single meter, so it twists everything like a pretzel and is totally impregnable to everything.

Now it'd be considerably easier to try and invent a weapon that goes right through everybody's impeller wedges. It's a 100% known tech, and you can steal, bribe, buy other people's old ships to use for testing, which you can't do when trying to figure a way to use hyper as a weapon.

And sidewalls, or spherical 'bubble' walls are, again as I stated originally, nowhere even close to the strength of a wedge. Even a superdreadnought's sidewalls, as tough as they are, are still weaker than the smallest of pinnace wedges.

MAD-4A wrote:So, there is no reason to think that no-one can come up with wedges that are of a different shape then those used "right now". There is also no reason to think that another geometric shape may work better (or perhaps works but not as good) than the "current" flat square wedge shape. Maybe someone will develop a hexagonal "wedge" with a slight convex curve that works (or say) 15% better than a flat square wedge. you can't say "it can't be done". Have you personally tried it? no - they don't really exist, so its up to RFC to decide if someone does, not you. As far as "the nodes HAVE to be right here and right here", that is for "current wedge designs" that doesn't mean (again) that a new design couldn't be developed - they certainly are NOT "right here and right here" on a Fort or on a Spider-Drive ship, so there is no reason to think that no-one can develop a different set up or that the set-up on a new wedge design can't require they be place in a different configuration.

Actually yes, I believe it's in one of the tech manual's of the books, that the wedge shape is fixed, there were attempts at modifying it but the current shape is best. But arguing over shape of a wedge doesn't mean much when you think a bubblewall is propulsive, rather than a 360 degree spherical defense that has zero propulsive effect.

And spider-drive ships have been stated, repeatedly by RFC, are incapable of operating their spider drive through a sidewall. Which means that even though they 'socket' into the Alpha band with their insanely powerful tractors, a spherical bubblewall defense stops them from operating at all. Which forces a spider-drive ship to move purely on thrusters, and since spider-drive ships like the Lenny Dets are currently thought to be somewhere between a current SD and a fort... thrusters will give you, oh maybe 10 gravs of acceleration?


I'll go try to track down the text-ev on wedge shape experiments, but I think it took a pearl for RFC to state "wedge = square, no other shape will do", or maybe we need Maxx to chime in here again.