Honor Harrington - Scat, Spat, Chat or Stat

The long and short of it is that Honor is two (at least) people. The Manticoran Honor was a Commodore and a countess. The Grayson Honor was an Admeral and a Steadholder. Basicly, it depends on who she chooses to be at any given time. If she wanted to serve in the RMN, she had to use her Manticoran personality as her primary self. If she needed to in an emergency, she probably could have activated her Grayson rank. However, doing so would basicly be snubbing the RMN, and that would upset her, and if it happened more than a couple of times, would cause the RMN to put her on longterm half pay. The reason it wasn't an issue on Hell was because both Honors had been captured, and the Grayson Honor was the senior officer.

She would have been given all of the deference due to an Admeral, regardless of which navy she was interacting with, if she was acting as a her Grayson self. If she was acting as her Manticoran self, she would have been given all of the deference due to a Commodore.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:
If a person with Manticoran citizenship happens to be an Admiral in the Grayson Space Navy and is not a member of the Manticoran Space Navy, she certainly would not be an Admiral of the Manticoran Space Navy. Similarly, just because Honor was an Admiral in the Grayson Space Navy does not mean that she is automatically an Admiral of the Manticoran Space Navy.

Think of it this way: Joe Busy happens to be a member of both the Loyal Order of the Caribou and the Fraternal Brotherhood of the Elk. He happens to hold the rank of Master in the Caribou; that does not automatically mean he is a Master in the Elk. They are different organizations, with their own ranks, rules, and rituals.

When Honor became a Steadholder, she did not automatically become a member of the Manticoran nobility. The Queen granted her the title of Countess, so that she would have status comparable (she thought at the time) comparable to her status in Grayson. But that did not have to happen; it was a deliberate choice by the Queen to acknowledge the service of a worthy subject. Titles, ranks, and awards in foreign states do not automatically accrue equivalent titles, ranks, and awards in your native state.

All of your points are well spoken and taken. Definitively, I know you are right. But truthfully, it continues to not sit well with me.

In my frail brain it boils down to this. Always back to this. When an Admiral in another Navy interacts with the RMN, there is never any question of rank, so why should it be for Honor? Intuitively, it seems rank should be rounded up to the highest rank one bears — likeso when Honor was on Hades and pulled rank on Rear Admiral Styles. Styles didn't want to accept her rank either, but an Admiral is as an Admiral does. And no one does Admiral as well.

Is there anything preventing Honor from wearing her GSN uniform at the time? It's not in Honor's nature to be spiteful of course, but she was a scorned woman — somewhat alienated by her own Star Kingdom at the time, and by that wholeass High Ridge. It was as if she had to accept a demotion, for a hard earned, well deserved accomplishment.

If Styles didn't have a legal leg to stand on, then how could the RMN? It would seem that they would appreciate that the GSN did their dirty work for them. Another point — the GSN, being an ally of Manticore, could have taken issue with the RMN not respecting Honor's promotion, absolutely.

Honor wasn't on loan to Grayson. She was actually in Grayson service. Since the RMN allowed Honor to enter GSN service then they would have to allow it wholehog — meaning her accomplishments and promotions, as an officer. In for a penny in for a pound. She wasn't on loan. And even though there are several entities in the one; it is the officer entity that gets promoted in both.

Too complicated. Little wonder so many lawyers were needed to deal with it. Still seems it isn't a clean deal. More of a raw deal for Honor.

Moreover, Honor was the second ranking GSN officer. If the GSN would have had to come to emergency (Case Zulu) assistance to the RMN at the time Honor was the GSN's second ranking Admiral — and High Ridge's government still prevailing — and a freak accident would have killed Wesley, then Honor would have automatically become Fleet Admiral Harrington, de facto. Or if Wesley's death would have occurred in the Endicott system and Honor would have officially become Fleet Admiral GSN, then what? She would still have been recognized as a Commodore? When she should have been the one running the show in the Manty system? Political bollox!

IMHO.

No one does honor to Admiral as Admiral Honor.

Do forgive — couldn't resist.

cthia wrote:I seem to remember passage stating that she reverted back to her RMN rank back on Manticore. Iirc, Manticore didn't recognize her Admiral status. I never quite understood that. If she made Admiral in another Navy, then an Admiral she is. Isn't she?

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:It's related to the same concept that Steadholder Harrington and Captain Countess Harrington are "two distinct personages inhabiting one body."

When in acting the Grayson chain of command, Honor was an Admiral; if she was given command of a mixed squadron in a slot allocated to the GSN, she would take command as a GSN Admiral. If the slot was allocated to the RMN, she would (at the time of FiE) take command as a RMN Commodore.

In some ways, it is the same concept as "rank" in an internet forum: Here I'm a "Commodore", at my other home-on-the-web, I'm just an "Opinionated Old Fart," or on another Forum, I'm a "Hero of the Horn."

Don't worry Harold; we accept the transfer of all your other cyberspace credit hours. You're an "Opinionated Old Fart" here as well.

****** *

But she wasn't, isn't, acting as a Steadholder persona while in the GSN, only while on Grayson dressed as a Steadholder. She made Admiral as a naval officer, not as a Steadholder. It just seems too complicated when it shouldn't be.

During the 19th century, many British officers on half-pay served in other nation's (or revolutionary) navies and attained high rank. An example would be Lord Cochrane (Thomas Cochrane, the 10th Earl of Dundonald) who commanded the Greek, Chilean, and Brazilian navies. He was a bit different from some of the others because he had been dismissed the navy, rather than placed on half-pay, because of the accusation he'd been involved in a stock fraud. (The evidence that he actually was is much less than overwhelming and he was a man who made political enemies by the boatload. Just saying. ). When he was pardoned and returned to naval service, her was promoted to rear admiral of the blue, which was substantially lower than his "foreign" rank. He assumed each of those commands with the approval of the British Government. Other examples include British officers who entered Russian service to command galley fleets on the rivers and the Black Sea during their campaigns against the Turks (when the Brits weren't allied with the Turks; it gets complicated ) and received Russian rank substantially higher than their British ranks. They reverted to their British ranks when they left Russian service.

The situations aren't an exact parallel to Honor's case, but it would be illegal for Elizabeth to promote her to a higher rank in the GSN or for Benjamin to promote her to a higher rank in the RMN. They are two separate navies, and her seniority depends upon which navy has currently placed her on active duty. On Cerberus, she placed herself on active Grayson duty, which permitted her her flag rank and settled the seniority question, but remember how well that went over with her blustering Manticoran colleague. He, of course, had been captured early enough in the war not to recognized the GSN as a peer of the RMN and regarded her claim to be a flag officer as being about as well grounded as a US admiral might consider a claim to being a flag officer in the Czech Navy, since, after all, the Czech Republic has no coastline.

Honor had been placed on half-pay, in disgrace, when she was promoted to admiral in the GSN. If serving as a GSN officer, the RMN would have recognized her admiral's rank just as it would have recognized any allied navy's ranks and seniority. If serving as an RMN officer, she reverted to her Manticoran rank and ought --- ought, I say --- to have been recognized as a mere captain by any Grayson she encountered while so serving. She could legally have resigned her RMN commission and become solely a GSN officer with rank granted by Grayson, but she truly is (and regards herself) as two people who happen to live in the same body: Captain the Countess (Now Admiral the Duchess) Harrington and Admiral Steadholder Harrington. She owes service to bother her star-nations, which doesn't even consider the fact that she wanted the Silesian mission badly as a way to "clear her name" in the professional world to which she had dedicated both her life and her personal honor.

I would pick nits on your post, RFC, but I feel its rude to do to the creator, almost as rude as mentioning it lol
My real post is this:
Rememebr cthia, when Hamish and Honor were worried about general order 119 ( I think it was a general order and I think it was 119 about fraternization in the RMN ranks) they breifly considered her leaving the RMN ans assuming her GSN rank. The rules inherent to RMN and the GSN don't cross over to the other in that regard.
Granted they were still concerned about it, but then its the problem with the split person in one body.

Unlike Oakius, I love picking nits...

runsforcelery wrote: .....She could legally have resigned her RMN commission and become solely a GSN officer with rank granted by Grayson, but she truly is (and regards herself) as two people who happen to live in the same body: Captain the Countess (Now Admiral the Duchess) Harrington and Admiral Steadholder Harrington. She owes service to bother her star-nations, which doesn't even consider the fact that she wanted the Silesian mission badly as a way to "clear her name" in the professional world to which she had dedicated both her life and her personal honor.

While she might occasionally surprise and perhaps in extreme circumstances, annoy Queen Elizabeth and Protector Benjamin, I don't think they see her as a bother....

Sorry, what passes for my sense of humor got the better of me....

cthia wrote:...and by that wholeass High Ridge.

I read through your whole post and then did a double-take upon remembering that this was buried somewhere in the middle. Is that a typo or are you saying he's 100% ass? You may have just invented another curse word.

cthia wrote:All of your points are well spoken and taken. Definitively, I know you are right. But truthfully, it continues to not sit well with me.

In my frail brain it boils down to this. Always back to this. When an Admiral in another Navy interacts with the RMN, there is never any question of rank, so why should it be for Honor? Intuitively, it seems rank should be rounded up to the highest rank one bears — likeso when Honor was on Hades and pulled rank on Rear Admiral Styles. Styles didn't want to accept her rank either, but an Admiral is as an Admiral does. And no one does Admiral as well.

Is there anything preventing Honor from wearing her GSN uniform at the time? It's not in Honor's nature to be spiteful of course, but she was a scorned woman — somewhat alienated by her own Star Kingdom at the time, and by that wholeass High Ridge. It was as if she had to accept a demotion, for a hard earned, well deserved accomplishment.

If Styles didn't have a legal leg to stand on, then how could the RMN? It would seem that they would appreciate that the GSN did their dirty work for them. Another point — the GSN, being an ally of Manticore, could have taken issue with the RMN not respecting Honor's promotion, absolutely.

Honor wasn't on loan to Grayson. She was actually in Grayson service. Since the RMN allowed Honor to enter GSN service then they would have to allow it wholehog — meaning her accomplishments and promotions, as an officer. In for a penny in for a pound. She wasn't on loan. And even though there are several entities in the one; it is the officer entity that gets promoted in both.

Too complicated. Little wonder so many lawyers were needed to deal with it. Still seems it isn't a clean deal. More of a raw deal for Honor.

Moreover, Honor was the second ranking GSN officer. If the GSN would have had to come to emergency (Case Zulu) assistance to the RMN at the time Honor was the GSN's second ranking Admiral — and High Ridge's government still prevailing — and a freak accident would have killed Wesley, then Honor would have automatically become Fleet Admiral Harrington, de facto. Or if Wesley's death would have occurred in the Endicott system and Honor would have officially become Fleet Admiral GSN, then what? She would still have been recognized as a Commodore? When she should have been the one running the show in the Manty system? Political bollox!

IMHO.
.

The problem is understanding the specific situations. The following is my understanding, and may be in error.

An officer in Navy A cannot under normal circumstances give any orders to an officer in Navy B. They are not in the same command structure.

There are three cases in which officers from multiple navies might fall into the same command structure. Case A is the case of allied nations each contributing ships toward a single naval unit. In that case, one officer is placed in command of the total unit, and may give commands to the commanders of the subunits (generally individual ships), regardless of which navy that subunit came from. Note that this commanding officer is not necessarily the one with the highest rank (though it usually is)! It is whichever commander the relevant navies agrees should be in command. That commander has the authority to command not by rank, but by specific authority of the allied navies. Generally there is a predetermined listing of officers to take over command if necessary.

Case B is when an officer from navy B is loaned to navy A, or in some other way is individually assigned to serve with navy A. In that case, navy A will generally grant a courtesy rank within navy A, which usually (but not always) is the equivalent of their rank in navy B. But note that this is not automatic--it is a specific courtesy granted by navy A. Navy A can decide to remove the rank and/or remove the officer from navy A at any time. And any orders that officer gives or follows is due to his courtesy rank within Navy A, not his original Navy B. Note that this is NOT the case with Honor Harrington.

Case C is when officers from multiple navies are prisoners of war together. In that case, the general practice is that original navy is ignored. All prisoners are considered to be in a single command structure, based on each officer's rank in their own navy, with equivalent ranks counted equally, and time-in-rank counting as usual. That is the situation on Hades.

The reason that Honor was not automatically an admiral in the RMN when she became an admiral in the GSN goes back to Case A. When the RMN assigned her to duties, they used her rank in the RMN, not the GSN. The RMN cannot order a Grayson officer to command an RMN fleet. They could ask the GSN to assign one of their officers as commander of an allied fleet, but that officer would be acting under her GSN rank. As a GSN officer in command of a fleet, her ability to order RMN ships would depend not on her rank, but on her jointly-agreed role as allied fleet commander. Therefore, her rank in the RMN is not directly tied to her rank in the GSN. The only circumstances in which Honor is able to use her Grayson rank to order RMN officers is as a specifically designated allied fleet commander assigned to the duty by her Grayson superiors with agreement from the RMN.

Okay. I defer to all of your better judgment on the matter. Half-partly because of your better judgment and half-partly because it's all way too complicated and my medulla oblongata is overheating. My head hurts!

Thanks for posting, RFC. I was hoping you would. But you've reminded me of another concern.

runsforcelery wrote:-snip-

He, of course, had been captured early enough in the war not to recognized the GSN as a peer of the RMN and regarded her claim to be a flag officer as being about as well grounded as a US admiral might consider a claim to being a flag officer in the Czech Navy, since, after all, the Czech Republic has no coastline.

-snip-

Why should it matter whether the GSN was a peer of the RMN's or not? Everyone was on Hades. Hades wasn't the domain of any Navy except the Republic. Styles had no special leg to stand on than Honor. Who the hell was Styles to recognize or not recognize another Naval officer's rank or their Navy's importance? Even the ships to be commandeered were not going to be Manticoran. Therefore, on Hades, Rear Admiral Styles couldn't run anything, but dishwater. If the prisoners as a whole decided to choose among leaders as per rank, then it is the prisoners choice, not a Manticoran's choice simply because he's RMN. Where am I offtrack?

cthia wrote:Okay. I defer to all of your better judgment on the matter. Half-partly because of your better judgment and half-partly because it's all way too complicated and my medulla oblongata is overheating. My head hurts!

Thanks for posting, RFC. I was hoping you would. But you've reminded me of another concern.

runsforcelery wrote:-snip-

He, of course, had been captured early enough in the war not to recognized the GSN as a peer of the RMN and regarded her claim to be a flag officer as being about as well grounded as a US admiral might consider a claim to being a flag officer in the Czech Navy, since, after all, the Czech Republic has no coastline.

-snip-

Why should it matter whether the GSN was a peer of the RMN's or not? Everyone was on Hades. Hades wasn't the domain of any Navy except the Republic. Styles had no special leg to stand on than Honor. Who the hell was Styles to recognize or not recognize another Naval officer's rank or their Navy's importance? Even the ships to be commandeered were not going to be Manticoran. Therefore, on Hades, Rear Admiral Styles couldn't run anything, but dishwater. If the prisoners as a whole decided to choose among leaders as per rank, then it is the prisoners choice, not a Manticoran's choice simply because he's RMN. Where am I offtrack?

Where you are offtrack is that he could run his mouth.

And did, much to his detriment.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

When discussing Honor's fine qualities everyone has missed one of her finest: she actually mourns the dead no matter if they are her own or the enemies. That is why she wished that she had held her fire and Tom needed to remind her of her duty. It takes a special person to do that.

Reader Bob wrote:When discussing Honor's fine qualities everyone has missed one of her finest: she actually mourns the dead no matter if they are her own or the enemies. That is why she wished that she had held her fire and Tom needed to remind her of her duty. It takes a special person to do that.

Ditto!

White Haven summed it up when he realized that he was wrong about Honor's coldheartedness, when he saw her reaction after learning that McKeon had gotten people off of his doomed ship.

White Haven moved into position to block her tears from view, "This one is special." (paraphrased)