Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 65 guests

Space Combat

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Space Combat
Post by Jeroswen   » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:04 pm

Jeroswen
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:09 pm
Location: Nampa, Idaho

roseandheather wrote:
Jeroswen wrote:What I would really like to see is the Solarian Raiders running into a Grayson force, yes I miss those guys, of older ships with similar ranges to the Solarian Navy. The tech advantage would still swing to the Graysons but they would have to work for it. Also, I miss watching a professional force facing a larger enemy and winning through guile and cunning. Plus it would illustrate for the reader in plain terms, that even if the tech was closely matched, decades of battlefield experience trump officers appointed because of political connections. Icing on the cake would be if Caslet was commanding the Grayson force. I know it can't happen. He is probably way to senior for that. I'll just have to hope to see Yu and Caslet in future books tearing it up with the Graysons.


I totally get where you're coming from - I miss my Graysons, too!! - but the one thing that you're missing is that Grayson is less likely to have older, technologically inferior ships than Manticore is. Pretty much all throughout the series, the Graysons have been the first to put bleeding-edge ships into space, because they have such an explosively expanding Navy and no backlog of older, outdated ships to weigh them down. I'd say chances are that, all told, Grayson's navy is even more technologically superior, on average, than Manticore's is, because they started with a totally blank slate.

Once the newest ships start rolling off the assembly lines at Bolthole, obviously, the Grand Alliance is going to have quite a bit more in the way of technological parity among its three star nations, since Blackbird, Hephaestus, Vulcan, and Weyland were all taken out in Oyster Bay and so Manticore and Grayson won't be building much of anything on their own, but Grayson still has plenty of tonnage in space - and the will to use it. :twisted:

All that said, I would be ecstatic to see Caslet, Yu, Yanakov, and Brentworth back in the action in future books. Not to mention Miss Owens, who is probably going to wind up with a command of her own in the GSN sooner rather than later.

Oh, Alignment. I almost feel sorry for you. :twisted:


Oh I hadn't forgotten that Grayson is always pushing the boundaries on ship design. The desire for the ships to be Grayson is mainly because I miss those guys a lot. However lets put on the cap of Grayson Navy for a second.

1. Your main construction yard has been blown away along with all your new construction.
2. You have also lost all your apollo construction from the same raid.
3. You are now facing off against 2 enemies. One is the SLN which has the largest fleet in the known universe. Two is an unknown with tech better than yours.

If 'I' was in charge I would plan on reactivating every ship I had in mothballs that I still had a stockpile of weapons for. Well every ship that I could man with trained personnel. Getting yards up and running has the priority but you can do more than one thing at a time.

The reasons:

1. Even the old ships (pre-Buttercup) have a big tech advantage over SLN ships.
2. I won't be getting any new ships until about 1.5 years after construction starts again.
3. Lets say I have quite a stock pile of old single stage missiles, let alone older MDM's. Every one of those I use saves me one more Apollo.
4. I could put any ships using single stage missiles in less critical areas freeing up more modern ships for use in the fight.

Now, if all the old single stage ships have been sent to the breakers, then so be it. But we were going for the "gotcha" factor and a small squadron of old Grayson ships (cruisers and destroyers) getting jumped by a larger force of SLN ships with cataphract missiles would be really cool to read.

It would be cool to have Honor pass off the death ride hat to the next generation. She can't go on any more death rides but those she has trained certainly can. Plus if Honor was present for the debrief it would be very cool to see her thoughts witnessing such an event from the outside instead of living it.

Anyway, I realize I may be stretching things a bit but I figured since Manticore still has single stage missile ships in inventory then Grayson might as well.
Top
Re: Space Combat
Post by Lord Skimper   » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:20 pm

Lord Skimper
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

Grayson has 50-90 old school SD. Manticore 200+ Sphinxs and Gryphons, 100-200 Dreadnoughts.

There are also the much maligned up to 200 Sollie SD using Cataphract DDM. Old and pretty much death traps against anything the GA can field but more advanced than anything the League, short of Maya has.

Beowulf also has 36 newer Sollie SD.

Looking at 200 good SD, 36 good Sollie SD, 100-200 fair to good DR & 130 poor to fair Sollie SD with DDM and 70 damaged Sollie SD good for parts.

Mind you one could transfers any missiles from the 70 damaged SD to the Beowulf SD for immediate use.

There are a few ships in the area but the crew costs are so high.
________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
Top
Re: Space Combat
Post by hanuman   » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:39 pm

hanuman
Captain of the List

Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:47 pm

Lord Skimper wrote:Grayson has 50-90 old school SD. Manticore 200+ Sphinxs and Gryphons, 100-200 Dreadnoughts.

There are also the much maligned up to 200 Sollie SD using Cataphract DDM. Old and pretty much death traps against anything the GA can field but more advanced than anything the League, short of Maya has.

Beowulf also has 36 newer Sollie SD.

Looking at 200 good SD, 36 good Sollie SD, 100-200 fair to good DR & 130 poor to fair Sollie SD with DDM and 70 damaged Sollie SD good for parts.

Mind you one could transfers any missiles from the 70 damaged SD to the Beowulf SD for immediate use.

There are a few ships in the area but the crew costs are so high.


Beowulf's SDs aren't Sollie ships. They were built by Beowulf herself, as far as I remember, not commissioned by the SLN.
Top
Re: Space Combat
Post by kzt   » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:12 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

hanuman wrote:Beowulf's SDs aren't Sollie ships. They were built by Beowulf herself, as far as I remember, not commissioned by the SLN.

Never clarified or stated either way IIRC.
Top
Re: Space Combat
Post by hanuman   » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:40 pm

hanuman
Captain of the List

Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:47 pm

kzt wrote:
hanuman wrote:Beowulf's SDs aren't Sollie ships. They were built by Beowulf herself, as far as I remember, not commissioned by the SLN.

Never clarified or stated either way IIRC.


Will get back to you on that one...not that it matters, since it has nothing to do with this topic.
Top
Re: Space Combat
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:09 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5245
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

hanuman wrote:Beowulf's SDs aren't Sollie ships. They were built by Beowulf herself, as far as I remember, not commissioned by the SLN.

kzt wrote:[Never clarified or stated either way IIRC.

hanuman wrote:Will get back to you on that one...not that it matters, since it has nothing to do with this topic.


Many barflies point to the line in ART where Admiral Tang thinks:

Maybe so, she told that corner [of her mind], but Crandall was going up against Manties, and whatever new designs the Manties may’ve come up with, we know what Beowulf has. Oh, they might have a couple of little wrinkles we don’t know about, but they sure as hell don’t have the Manties’ new damned designs! If they did, we’d know about it already.


Those barflies think the "We know what Beowulf has" line means that the BSDF is fielding standard SL designs. It could just be that the SLN believes it has firm intelligence on the ship's capabilities (perhaps from wargames).

But KZT is correct, all we know is the BSDF has 36 SDs, they are tube wallers with no obvious Manty improvements, they routinely train with Manticore, and the SLN believes that have firm intel on the ship's capabilities.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Space Combat
Post by George J. Smith   » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:35 am

George J. Smith
Commodore

Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:48 am
Location: Ross-on-Wye UK

Theemile wrote:
hanuman wrote:Beowulf's SDs aren't Sollie ships. They were built by Beowulf herself, as far as I remember, not commissioned by the SLN.

kzt wrote:[Never clarified or stated either way IIRC.

hanuman wrote:Will get back to you on that one...not that it matters, since it has nothing to do with this topic.


Many barflies point to the line in ART where Admiral Tang thinks:

Maybe so, she told that corner [of her mind], but Crandall was going up against Manties, and whatever new designs the Manties may’ve come up with, we know what Beowulf has. Oh, they might have a couple of little wrinkles we don’t know about, but they sure as hell don’t have the Manties’ new damned designs! If they did, we’d know about it already.


Those barflies think the "We know what Beowulf has" line means that the BSDF is fielding standard SL designs. It could just be that the SLN believes it has firm intelligence on the ship's capabilities (perhaps from wargames).

But KZT is correct, all we know is the BSDF has 36 SDs, they are tube wallers with no obvious Manty improvements, they routinely train with Manticore, and the SLN believes that have firm intel on the ship's capabilities.


My emphasis,

Surely Beowulf would have passed the specs for the Sollies ships onto Manticore. In that case why the need to take any of the captured ships from Talbott to Manticore earlier.

:?: :?:

T&R
GJS
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
Top
Re: Space Combat
Post by hanuman   » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:07 pm

hanuman
Captain of the List

Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:47 pm

George J. Smith wrote:
My emphasis,

Surely Beowulf would have passed the specs for the Sollies ships onto Manticore. In that case why the need to take any of the captured ships from Talbott to Manticore earlier.

:?: :?:

T&R
GJS


Because whatever Beowulf might be, they aren't traitors. They might have signed up with the GA, but that was only AFTER they found out how the MA was using to League to advance its own plans.
Top
Re: Space Combat
Post by Jeroswen   » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:42 pm

Jeroswen
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:09 pm
Location: Nampa, Idaho

kzt wrote:
hanuman wrote:Beowulf's SDs aren't Sollie ships. They were built by Beowulf herself, as far as I remember, not commissioned by the SLN.

Never clarified or stated either way IIRC.


I have never seen anything that states exactly what the SD model is that Beowulf is fielding. I "assumed" it would be the latest design from the League, probably a Scientist.
Top
Re: Space Combat
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:04 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5245
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Jeroswen wrote:I have never seen anything that states exactly what the SD model is that Beowulf is fielding. I "assumed" it would be the latest design from the League, probably a Scientist.


The "latest" Solarian SD design we know of is the Vega -
which were basically only repeat Scientists with a couple of additional missile tubes in each broadside.


But with the oldest Scientists being in the 200 year old range - the above doesn't really tell us anything about what is current. However, the flagships of all 3 SLN SD fleets we have seen have appeared to be Scientists, It doesn't bode well that there are many (or any) newer designs.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top

Return to Honorverse