New Freighter Design.

Relax wrote:Previous post, or was it 2 posts ago, you just got done indicating, implying, going towards stating everyone is going to be getting Technodyne Cataphract missiles or LERM from Erewhon etc.

What I said was the Erewhon level of pod/MDM technology was outside of the SEM of manticore's control. I have no idea if some corrupt supply clerk in the Maya sector is selling bootleg pods and missiles to pirates, but I kind of doubt it.

Relax wrote:Not that I agree with you but lets run down your line of reasoning. Ok. Last I checked, those missiles have 12-16Mkm range. So, your freighters only solution as a defenseless freighter would be full up MDM missiles allowing you to stay out of their newfound 12-16Mkm range and a sensor suite to actually see that far!

The Rent-a-pod concept is intended for anti-pirate protection -- as an alternative to Limpet-LACs; which also would be vulnerable to the Super Pirates you suggest.

Relax wrote:This only covers the offensive side. What about defense? Freighters are s-l-o-w maneuvering etc. Would ballistic missiles still take them out? Now you still need PDLC, CM along with those sensors and suites even at SDM ranges!

We're talking about protection from pirates -- who are notably reluctant to destroy their victims from long range. People who are likely to run when confronted by an armed victim rather than fight to possible mutual destruction.

Yes, freighters are vulnerable and slow. Unarmed freighters are easy prey for pirates.

However, Pirates don't tangle with armed merchants by choice, especially when said merchant ship has capital missile pods with greater reach and destructive power than a typical pirate.

[quote"Relax"]
Did you not read the practicality of doing this up thread? Spacers required?[/quote]

Five tactical specialists per rent-a-pod set. As opposed to 20-40 plus maintenance crew for a Limpet-LAC. detachment of two to four LACs.

The practicality of rent-a-pod depends on fire-control/sensors. How expensive and how capable a fire-control pod can be made will determine cost effectiveness, but even using a limpet-lac for sensors and fire-control would cut the manpower requirement and technology exposure in half or quarter.

The sensors and AI from an Apollo ACM or two might work, but that strays into modern technology that really would be too exposed. Perhaps some derivative of that or RD sensor tech could be worked out.

However you figure it, a dozen missile pods and five tactical specialists is cheaper than two or four LACs and would expose less current technology to capture.

Weird Harold wrote:

Duckk wrote:Neither the Republic nor the Star Kingdom ...

Where does Erewhon fit into that assertion? Erewhon is already selling the tech suggested to Maya and neither the Republic or SEM seem to be upset about it -- possibly because Erewhon's tech is a couple of generations behind the SEM?

It's mostly because they trust Rozack and Barregos to some degree.

drothgery wrote:It's mostly because they trust Rozack and Barregos to some degree.

<sigh>
That still doesn't put that level of technology back under SEM control.

Worrying about rent-a-pod missiles and pods that can be purchased from a corrupt supply Sergeant in Maya or Maytag getting into anyone's hands is worrying about a barn door latch after the horse is made into glue.

Thanks for the refs. Been reading.

Your two examples. Both very close range. Both against AMC with torpedoes for pete's sake. This is like in HAE between Honor and here AMC while she suckered pirates. These guys had a lot of firepower.

The first, they got lucky and nailed the bridge first. Note, this battle was a true AMC verses CL, not a merchantmen "renting" a gun turret or missile pods trying to get by. These guys were military.

The second one, they got danged lucky, and then to cap it all off nearly everyone died "defending" their ship. Not exactly a good precedent.

So, both, got lucky. I don't see check marks in favor of arming with tech others are going to prey upon your shipping for. Especially when word gets out you are carrying it. Old tech? Ok. All along I have stated that is Okay. Let em get close and then let em have it. Of course you are going to die, "taking one" for the "good guys." by doing so.

Personally, I never bought this: your ship is armed you can't come in our star system line of logic. When the universe is at peace and has been at peace for a very long time, ok, I will buy that, but not when everything has gone to Hell in a handbasket where the baby got thrown out with the bath water. Not when these star nations are going to be looking for all the commerce and trade they can get. Their SDF can more than handle armed merchantmen with a popgun.

Jonathan_S wrote:They might not have done much against subs or airplanes, but "without doing a damned thing" is too harsh.

The German AMC raider Kormoran fought the CL HMAS Sydney to a mutual destruction.

And the US Liberty Ship SS Stephen Hopkins (w/ 1 4" gun and a couple 37mm AA guns) encountered and fought to mutual destruction the German AMC raider Steir (6 5.9" guns, 1 3" gun)

Those were two I knew off the top of my head.


And of course as commerce raiders the Germans AMC, like their raider Pinguin, were pretty successful (certainly more so than their conventional warships)

Weird Harold wrote:

Relax wrote:Not that I agree with you but lets run down your line of reasoning. Ok. Last I checked, those missiles have 12-16Mkm range. So, your freighters only solution as a defenseless freighter would be full up MDM missiles allowing you to stay out of their newfound 12-16Mkm range and a sensor suite to actually see that far!

The Rent-a-pod concept is intended for anti-pirate protection -- as an alternative to Limpet-LACs; which also would be vulnerable to the Super Pirates you suggest.

Relax wrote:This only covers the offensive side. What about defense? Freighters are s-l-o-w maneuvering etc. Would ballistic missiles still take them out? Now you still need PDLC, CM along with those sensors and suites even at SDM ranges!

We're talking about protection from pirates -- who are notably reluctant to destroy their victims from long range. People who are likely to run when confronted by an armed victim rather than fight to possible mutual destruction.

Yes, freighters are vulnerable and slow. Unarmed freighters are easy prey for pirates.

However, Pirates don't tangle with armed merchants by choice, especially when said merchant ship has capital missile pods with greater reach and destructive power than a typical pirate.

Five tactical specialists per rent-a-pod set. As opposed to 20-40 plus maintenance crew for a Limpet-LAC. detachment of two to four LACs.

The practicality of rent-a-pod depends on fire-control/sensors. How expensive and how capable a fire-control pod can be made will determine cost effectiveness, but even using a limpet-lac for sensors and fire-control would cut the manpower requirement and technology exposure in half or quarter.

The sensors and AI from an Apollo ACM or two might work, but that strays into modern technology that really would be too exposed. Perhaps some derivative of that or RD sensor tech could be worked out.

However you figure it, a dozen missile pods and five tactical specialists is cheaper than two or four LACs and would expose less current technology to capture.

When someone shoots at me, I will shoot back. Freighters still can not take a punch. Look again at what two pinnaces did to a freighter in 'Shadow of Saganami' with the paltry 5cm lasers mounted on a pinnace. A missile laser hit would be lucky to NOT destroy the freighter. Having freighters shoot at raiders is a bad idea.

BTW, why would you have 20-40 maintenance personnel per LAC? Even before the fission LACs, they would go on weeks long deployments around a star system on their own. So how is riding along with a freighter different?

Relax wrote:Personally, I never bought this: your ship is armed you can't come in our star system line of logic. When the universe is at peace and has been at peace for a very long time, ok, I will buy that, but not when everything has gone to Hell in a handbasket where the baby got thrown out with the bath water. Not when these star nations are going to be looking for all the commerce and trade they can get. Their SDF can more than handle armed merchantmen with a popgun.

Per David Weber

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/324/1

Basically, you don't want civilian vessels wandering around that may turn pirate. You don't want civilian vessels that may make a mistake with their guns in your anchorage. Civilians are not military and militaries are the responsibility of a government, not a corporation. The responsibilities between the two are different. Like the differences between cops and the guy on the street carrying a gun.

Your rent a pod is a neat idea, but it could also be a rent a hyper life boat in a pod too! Ready to go when you get onto a system where it might be needed. After a few weeks or month or even a single run it can be swapped out or serviced from the rent a hyper life boat pod rental company.

Kizarvexis wrote:<snip>
BTW, why would you have 20-40 maintenance personnel per LAC? Even before the fission LACs, they would go on weeks long deployments around a star system on their own. So how is riding along with a freighter different?

Manty "Super" LACs (Shrike, Ferret, Katana) are optimized for warfighting and not for maintenance - virtually all maintenance is done externally or via a depot, so they requiring basing of some sort for maintenance and rearming. Older, conventional LACs have maintenance spaces like starships do for maintenance purposes. By removing those functions to the basing unit, you get a ship much more oriented to warfighting

Kizarvexis wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Five tactical specialists per rent-a-pod set. As opposed to 20-40 plus maintenance crew for a Limpet-LAC. detachment of two to four LACs.

BTW, why would you have 20-40 maintenance personnel per LAC?

That 20-40 Crew plus 10-20 maintenance personnel for a detachment of 2-4 LACs. That's figuring a crew of 10 and five maintenance personnel per LAC.

As Themile says, modern LACs are designed for maintenance by support crew -- that's why Limpet-LACs would need support pods and maintenance crews. Five per LAC is a conservative estimate, BTW; It might take a minimum of ten or fifteen for the first LAC and an additional 3-5 for each additional LAC. The bigger the detachment, the more officers and NCOs get added to the mix, too.

Weird Harold wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:BTW, why would you have 20-40 maintenance personnel per LAC?

That 20-40 Crew plus 10-20 maintenance personnel for a detachment of 2-4 LACs. That's figuring a crew of 10 and five maintenance personnel per LAC.

As Themile says, modern LACs are designed for maintenance by support crew -- that's why Limpet-LACs would need support pods and maintenance crews. Five per LAC is a conservative estimate, BTW; It might take a minimum of ten or fifteen for the first LAC and an additional 3-5 for each additional LAC. The bigger the detachment, the more officers and NCOs get added to the mix, too.

At the same time, a larger detachment means your per LAC manpower shrinks. In EoH, we see Silver Spanner helping to maintain several ships in the squadron - each ship member (and maintenance asset) has a technical speciality, once you have a full set of specialists (and sufficient extra hands for x hours of maintenance per bird deployed), your have the right maintenance ratio. The RMN probably has the full specialist set for each squadron, and deploying less than that may be manpower heavy on the maintenance crew size to make up for the lack of job specialists deployed on the ships.

Theemile wrote:At the same time, a larger detachment means your per LAC manpower shrinks.

That's true, but I haven't seen anyone suggest more than four Limpet-LACs per Freighter. That's a substantial investment in manpower unless a centralized maintenance and arming pod to service and entire convoy; not much help for ships traveling solo, though.