BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

tlb wrote:

UH,pg 455 wrote:"I hope no one will be offended if I say, speaking as the Republic's Chief attorney, how deeply relieved I am to be out of what we might charitably call a legally ambiguous situation."

Although Devorah Ophir-Giacconi was only sixty-eight, which was very young for a Beowulfan Director, she’d headed the Beowulfan Directorate of Justice for almost nine T-years now. She was smart, a highly respected member of the Beowulf Bar and a stubborn defender of the integrity of the legal process. Which, Benton-Ramirez y Chou reflected, undoubtedly explained her utter disdain for the Solarian League’s current state.

“Oh?” He smiled at her. “You mean now that we’re all officially traitors?”

A chorus of chuckles, some with a slight edge of nervousness, perhaps, ran around the conference room, and Ophir-Giacconi snorted.

“Actually, Jacques, I mean now that we aren’t traitors anymore. Arguably, at least.”

“Excuse me?” Konstantin Brulé-Chou raised both shaggy eyebrows. The Director of Human Affairs was almost eight centimeters taller than Ophir-Giacconi, but his legs were actually shorter than hers, and he was very broad shouldered and powerfully built. That probably helped explain his nickname of “Bear,” but his heavy eyebrows, low hairline, and big, powerful hands had contributed their bit to its inevitability. “I’d think the fact that we just supervised a vote to secede from the Solarian League definitely makes us traitors, at least in Old Chicago!”

“No,” Ophir-Giacconi said. “We were traitors while, as a member of the Solarian League, we were actively aiding and comforting a star nation—arguably, three star nations, really—who are in a state of war against the League. Now we’re either an independent star nation or we’re rebels, not traitors. There is a legal distinction. Our own judiciary’s interpretation is that we just became an independent star nation again for the first time in seven hundred and seventy T-years through the legitimate exercise of our constitutional rights as a member system of the Solarian League. That means that—like any independent star nation—our foreign policy, including any military alliances we choose to make, is our affair and no one else’s, so no one can accuse us of treason for whatever we decide. I doubt anyone in Old Chicago’s interested in our interpretation, but it is a matter of public record. And as a nitpicking attorney, I’m glad to get out of the moral and legal middleground.”

She probably had a point there, Benton-Ramirez y Chou acknowledged. There was a certain legal and moral…murkiness to the Republic of Beowulf’s actions over the last seven months or so—starting with the decision to warn both Landing and Nouveau Paris about Filareta’s impending attack—regardless of how justified its position might be.

It was still difficult for him to realize Beowulf, the primary mover behind the creation of the Solarian League, really, was in the process of destroying it.

UH,pg 456 wrote:But there'd never been an alternative once Innokentiy Kolokoltsov and his fellows refused to acknowledge even the possibility of the Alignment's existence and doubled down on their conflict with Manticore and her allies, instead. The Mandarins' effort to scapegoat Beowulf for the disastrous outcome of Operation Raging Justice had only underscored his star system's lack of options, and the decision to call a plebiscite to consider secession had made itself.

cthia wrote:I hate to say I told you so, but, well, I DID I DID I DID TOLD YOU SO!

Do also note the remarks about the moral implications of Beowulf's actions, as well, that, I was oh so nice to point out, oh so long ago.

It was simply shocking to me that Beowulf had abandoned certain morals, scruples and values. Out of their understandable festering hatred for the Mandarins, Beowulf had become much of what they detested. They still had a moral obligation to those innocent men and women of the League it helped form. Informing the SKM that Filareta was coming, yet not making it known to the SLN/Mandarins/League that they had done so -- and that a welcoming party had been formed -- was not only appalling, but morally bankrupt.

Things are not as severe as you paint them unless RFC is being imprecise in his language. Note that the situation prior to the secession is described as "legally ambiguous", "moral and legal middleground" and "legal and moral murkiness". If the participants really believed that they were guilty of treason (as opposed to being considered traitors by the Mandarins), then those words would be much too mild. They were in a legal and moral murk because their obligations to friends and family at Manticore were being tested by the corrupt government of the Solarian League. They chose to resolve the ambiguity by seceding, which is not your favored course of action; but is as moral and legal as anything you propose.

As to why they did not believe their actions while part of the League were illegal, that is explained by a quote from A Rising Thunder:

ART,pg 185 wrote:There's been no declaration of war, and Article Five of the Constitution specifically denies the federal goverment authority to dictate to system governments in time of peace.

PS. I had to type the leading sentence into the first quote and the text of the next two quotes from the books, so I hope there are no mistakes. I corrected the spelling of "Nouveau".

You are desperately reaching. Standing on a ladder isn't going to help either. It's a foregone conclusion.

I'm going to attempt this anyway, but I don't expect it to fall on anything but deaf ears. But like the Manticorans, I am morally obligated to try.

First things first. There's absolutely nothing ambiguous about this.

“Actually, Jacques, I mean now that we aren’t traitors anymore. Arguably, at least.”

The arguable part is referencing the fact that the "League" may disagree that they've passed that particular milestone.

Really pay attention to the next one . . .

“No,” Ophir-Giacconi said. “We were traitors while, as a member of the Solarian League, we were actively aiding and comforting a star nation—arguably, three star nations, really—who are in a state of war against the League."

There sure as hell isn't anything ambiguous or imprecise about that statement -- coming from a top notch respected lawyer, and member of the Beowulf bar -- either.

The moral and legal middle ground, is the same moral and legal middle ground I've been pointing out all along. If you wouldn't have been so antsy about objecting to my analogy of a marriage and accepted that it was simply a tool to facilitate understanding, you might have understood it. Here's a concise reenactment of the thread's civil war for your benefit . . .

Reenactment of the thread's Civil War . . .

Just like when you are going through the process of a divorce, while you are in the process of seceding -- especially while in the middle of a war -- you still, technically, have an undisputed responsibility to your husband. You are in limbo. Before she pulled off a successful secession, Beowulf was in limbo.

TECHNICALLY YOU ARE STILL MARRIED. MORALLY, YOU ARE IN LIMBO.

There is a passage in UH that I can't seem to locate. It is out of the mouth of a Mandarin that states, paraphrasing . . .

"Contacting an enemy directly during a state of war is considered treason. The Manties had declared war."

Granted, If my memory serves me right, I don't think the Mandarin in question was talking about Beowulf. I think it was a discussion about Hypatia, also a founder since youth. But it doesn't bode well for Beowulf, whoever the discussion was about.

UH,pg 455 wrote:"I hope no one will be offended if I say, speaking as the Republic's Chief attorney, how deeply relieved I am to be out of what we might charitably call a legally ambiguous situation."

Although Devorah Ophir-Giacconi was only sixty-eight, which was very young for a Beowulfan Director, she’d headed the Beowulfan Directorate of Justice for almost nine T-years now. She was smart, a highly respected member of the Beowulf Bar and a stubborn defender of the integrity of the legal process. Which, Benton-Ramirez y Chou reflected, undoubtedly explained her utter disdain for the Solarian League’s current state.

“Oh?” He smiled at her. “You mean now that we’re all officially traitors?”

A chorus of chuckles, some with a slight edge of nervousness, perhaps, ran around the conference room, and Ophir-Giacconi snorted.

“Actually, Jacques, I mean now that we aren’t traitors anymore. Arguably, at least.”

“Excuse me?” Konstantin Brulé-Chou raised both shaggy eyebrows. The Director of Human Affairs was almost eight centimeters taller than Ophir-Giacconi, but his legs were actually shorter than hers, and he was very broad shouldered and powerfully built. That probably helped explain his nickname of “Bear,” but his heavy eyebrows, low hairline, and big, powerful hands had contributed their bit to its inevitability. “I’d think the fact that we just supervised a vote to secede from the Solarian League definitely makes us traitors, at least in Old Chicago!”

“No,” Ophir-Giacconi said. “We were traitors while, as a member of the Solarian League, we were actively aiding and comforting a star nation—arguably, three star nations, really—who are in a state of war against the League. Now we’re either an independent star nation or we’re rebels, not traitors. There is a legal distinction. Our own judiciary’s interpretation is that we just became an independent star nation again for the first time in seven hundred and seventy T-years through the legitimate exercise of our constitutional rights as a member system of the Solarian League. That means that—like any independent star nation—our foreign policy, including any military alliances we choose to make, is our affair and no one else’s, so no one can accuse us of treason for whatever we decide. I doubt anyone in Old Chicago’s interested in our interpretation, but it is a matter of public record. And as a nitpicking attorney, I’m glad to get out of the moral and legal middleground.”

She probably had a point there, Benton-Ramirez y Chou acknowledged. There was a certain legal and moral…murkiness to the Republic of Beowulf’s actions over the last seven months or so—starting with the decision to warn both Landing and Nouveau Paris about Filareta’s impending attack—regardless of how justified its position might be.

It was still difficult for him to realize Beowulf, the primary mover behind the creation of the Solarian League, really, was in the process of destroying it.

UH,pg 456 wrote:But there'd never been an alternative once Innokentiy Kolokoltsov and his fellows refused to acknowledge even the possibility of the Alignment's existence and doubled down on their conflict with Manticore and her allies, instead. The Mandarins' effort to scapegoat Beowulf for the disastrous outcome of Operation Raging Justice had only underscored his star system's lack of options, and the decision to call a plebiscite to consider secession had made itself.

cthia wrote:I hate to say I told you so, but, well, I DID I DID I DID TOLD YOU SO!

Do also note the remarks about the moral implications of Beowulf's actions, as well, that, I was oh so nice to point out, oh so long ago.

It was simply shocking to me that Beowulf had abandoned certain morals, scruples and values. Out of their understandable festering hatred for the Mandarins, Beowulf had become much of what they detested. They still had a moral obligation to those innocent men and women of the League it helped form. Informing the SKM that Filareta was coming, yet not making it known to the SLN/Mandarins/League that they had done so -- and that a welcoming party had been formed -- was not only appalling, but morally bankrupt.

tlb wrote:Things are not as severe as you paint them unless RFC is being imprecise in his language. Note that the situation prior to the secession is described as "legally ambiguous", "moral and legal middleground" and "legal and moral murkiness". If the participants really believed that they were guilty of treason (as opposed to being considered traitors by the Mandarins), then those words would be much too mild. They were in a legal and moral murk because their obligations to friends and family at Manticore were being tested by the corrupt government of the Solarian League. They chose to resolve the ambiguity by seceding, which is not your favored course of action; but is as moral and legal as anything you propose.

As to why they did not believe their actions while part of the League were illegal, that is explained by a quote from A Rising Thunder:

ART,pg 185 wrote:There's been no declaration of war, and Article Five of the Constitution specifically denies the federal goverment authority to dictate to system governments in time of peace.

PS. I had to type the leading sentence into the first quote and the text of the next two quotes from the books, so I hope there are no mistakes. I corrected the spelling of "Nouveau".

cthia wrote:You are desperately reaching. Standing on a ladder isn't going to help either. It's a foregone conclusion.

I'm going to attempt this anyway, but I don't expect it to fall on anything but deaf ears. But like the Manticorans, I am morally obligated to try.

First things first. There's absolutely nothing ambiguous about this.

“Actually, Jacques, I mean now that we aren’t traitors anymore. Arguably, at least.”

The arguable part is referencing the fact that the "League" may disagree that they've passed that particular milestone.

Really pay attention to the next one . . .

“No,” Ophir-Giacconi said. “We were traitors while, as a member of the Solarian League, we were actively aiding and comforting a star nation—arguably, three star nations, really—who are in a state of war against the League."

There sure as hell isn't anything ambiguous or imprecise about that statement -- coming from a top notch respected lawyer, and member of the Beowulf bar -- either.

The moral and legal middle ground, is the same moral and legal middle ground I've been pointing out all along. If you wouldn't have been so antsy about objecting to my analogy of a marriage and accepted that it was simply a tool to facilitate understanding, you might have understood it. Here's a concise reenactment of the thread's civil war for your benefit . . .

Reenactment of the thread's Civil War . . .

Just like when you are going through the process of a divorce, while you are in the process of seceding -- especially while in the middle of a war -- you still, technically, have an undisputed responsibility to your husband. You are in limbo. Before she pulled off a successful secession, Beowulf was in limbo.

There is a passage in UH that I can't seem to locate. It is out of the mouth of a Mandarin that states, paraphrasing . . .

"Contacting an enemy directly during a state of war is considered treason. The Manties had declared war."

Granted, If my memory serves me right, I don't think the Mandarin in question was talking about Beowulf. I think it was a discussion about Hypatia, also a founder since youth. But it doesn't bode well for Beowulf, whoever the discussion was about.

I am just highlighting the words used by RFC, which do not lend themselves to the idea that the people in the discussion really believed that they were morally wrong; despite that fact that the Mandarins could probably convict them of all sorts of things if they could be dragged back to Sol. You like some of the things that Devorah Ophir-Giacconi says, yet object to my pointing to "ambiguous"; but that came from her. Note that I am saying RFC was not imprecise, if you look at all the words; not just the ones that you like.

You are free to believe that they were both legally and morally wrong; just as I can believe they were not morally wrong and technically not legally wrong because there was no formal declaration of war on the part of the Solarian government.

I agree with your understanding of the use of "Arguably" in the statement by Ophir-Giacconi, I also think that she is referring to the probable reaction by the Mandarins. But you stop short of what she means: she is saying they were traitors in the eyes of the Mandarins prior to the secession vote, but now that word cannot be used for anything they do in the future. That is what she meant by this sentence:

I doubt anyone in Old Chicago’s interested in our interpretation, but it is a matter of public record. And as a nitpicking attorney, I’m glad to get out of the moral and legal middleground.

I think the legal interpretation is the one that I quoted from ART. I also agree that the text you put in quotes can be considered treason in war time, but the Solarian League has not declared war. Just as in the book Field of Dishonor, there is an important distinction; certain acts by the Solarian government can legally only follow such a declaration. That is the same problem with your civil war analogy, the statement "especially while in the middle of a war" does not hold true in the absence of a declaration.

I'm sure I was correct way back when, when I imagined the Mandarins had to be desperate to find legal justification in the Constitution for accusing Beowulf of treason. They would have offered a King's Ranson for the passage. The payout goes to filbert. 1 TUFT full of gold-pressed latinum. Well done . . .

SLNS Camperdown
Hypatia Planetary Orbit
Hypatia System

“How would you assess the reliability of this intelligence, Captain Adenauer?” Madhura Yang-O’Grady asked. She sat back in her chair, rubbing her eyes—it was the middle of Camperdown’s shipboard night, and she’d been in bed for less than an hour before she was dragged back out of it. “Obviously, we have to take it seriously, but do you believe it’s reliable or simply a product of the rumor mill?”

“Ma’am, that’s a question I can’t answer,” Hajdu Gyôzô’s intelligence officer replied. “It comes from a Gendarme who, according to the system datafiles they sent out with us, is both apolitical and a career investigator. On the face of it, that would incline me to believe she wouldn’t be reporting rumors unless she thought there was a lot of truth in them, and that she’s trained to recognize when there is. From the perspective of whether or not she’s telling us what she really thinks, I don’t think there’s much question about her reliability. I might add that she was obviously stressed and unhappy in the data packet she encrypted and fired out to us. This is a woman who didn’t like what she was doing but did it anyway, because that was her duty.”

“So you think it is reliable?”

“Ma’am, the distinction I’m trying to make is between truthful and accurate, and the two aren’t always the same. She’s definitely not lying to us. The question is whether or not what she thinks she knows is accurate, and that’s what I can’t assess.”

“We understand the line you’re drawing, Denton,” Hajdu said. “On the other hand, you have to have some sort of feel for whether or not it’s likely to be accurate.”

“Yes, Sir.” Adenauer recognized Hajdu’s fish-or-cut-bait tone. He didn’t like it, but he did recognize it, and he inhaled deeply.

“First,” he began, “it would make a lot of sense. If the Hypatians are going to secede from the League and ask for political union with Beowulf, it would be logical for them to take the next step and request a protective naval presence here in Hypatia. The system authorities would have to be careful about how they handled that, at least until the referendum vote was tabulated, because direct contact with the Manties or the ‘Grand Alliance’ would be treason, now that the Manties have declared war on us. Contact simply with Beowulf might not be construed that way by the Federal Government. Direct military talks with Manticore certainly would be, and the last thing they’d want would be to have the local Gendarmes arresting their System President, his cabinet, or members of the Yerousía—I mean their Senate—for treason on the eve of the referendum.

“So, from that perspective, an invitation to the Manties to send a substantial naval force after the referendum vote’s been certified would be a logical step. In fact, our operational planning assumed that was exactly what they would do.

The bold and the boldness to underline the bold is my own, and not the author's.


There's nothing ambiguous about the notion, which doesn't bode well for the question of whether Beowulf is guilty of treason. I tried to point that out to everyone so fastened to the letter of the law about there not being a Declaration of War by the Solarians, it became a moot point, when the Manticorans declared war!

That is when Beowulf found herself in an untenable position of the Kama Sutra that could phuck her. At that point, she either cease and desist all contact with the Manties or accept that she is -- indeed, without ambiguity -- a traitor.

After Beowulf successfully divorced her husband -- effectively rescuing herself from murky waters -- then, and only then, did she have free [rein reign], since technically both apply, to sleep with whomever she pleases.

See how the analogy to marriage makes it so clear?

cthia wrote:I'm sure I was correct way back when, when I imagined the Mandarins had to be desperate to find legal justification in the Constitution for accusing Beowulf of treason. They would have offered a King's Ranson for the passage. The payout goes to filbert. 1 TUFT full of gold-pressed latinum. Well done . . .

SLNS Camperdown
Hypatia Planetary Orbit
Hypatia System

“How would you assess the reliability of this intelligence, Captain Adenauer?” Madhura Yang-O’Grady asked. She sat back in her chair, rubbing her eyes—it was the middle of Camperdown’s shipboard night, and she’d been in bed for less than an hour before she was dragged back out of it. “Obviously, we have to take it seriously, but do you believe it’s reliable or simply a product of the rumor mill?”

“Ma’am, that’s a question I can’t answer,” Hajdu Gyôzô’s intelligence officer replied. “It comes from a Gendarme who, according to the system datafiles they sent out with us, is both apolitical and a career investigator. On the face of it, that would incline me to believe she wouldn’t be reporting rumors unless she thought there was a lot of truth in them, and that she’s trained to recognize when there is. From the perspective of whether or not she’s telling us what she really thinks, I don’t think there’s much question about her reliability. I might add that she was obviously stressed and unhappy in the data packet she encrypted and fired out to us. This is a woman who didn’t like what she was doing but did it anyway, because that was her duty.”

“So you think it is reliable?”

“Ma’am, the distinction I’m trying to make is between truthful and accurate, and the two aren’t always the same. She’s definitely not lying to us. The question is whether or not what she thinks she knows is accurate, and that’s what I can’t assess.”

“We understand the line you’re drawing, Denton,” Hajdu said. “On the other hand, you have to have some sort of feel for whether or not it’s likely to be accurate.”

“Yes, Sir.” Adenauer recognized Hajdu’s fish-or-cut-bait tone. He didn’t like it, but he did recognize it, and he inhaled deeply.

“First,” he began, “it would make a lot of sense. If the Hypatians are going to secede from the League and ask for political union with Beowulf, it would be logical for them to take the next step and request a protective naval presence here in Hypatia. The system authorities would have to be careful about how they handled that, at least until the referendum vote was tabulated, because direct contact with the Manties or the ‘Grand Alliance’ would be treason, now that the Manties have declared war on us. Contact simply with Beowulf might not be construed that way by the Federal Government. Direct military talks with Manticore certainly would be, and the last thing they’d want would be to have the local Gendarmes arresting their System President, his cabinet, or members of the Yerousía—I mean their Senate—for treason on the eve of the referendum.

“So, from that perspective, an invitation to the Manties to send a substantial naval force after the referendum vote’s been certified would be a logical step. In fact, our operational planning assumed that was exactly what they would do.

The bold and the boldness to underline the bold is my own, and not the author's.


There's nothing ambiguous about the notion, which doesn't bode well for the question of whether Beowulf is guilty of treason. I tried to point that out to everyone so fastened to the letter of the law about there not being a Declaration of War by the Solarians, it became a moot point, when the Manticorans declared war!

That is when Beowulf found herself in an untenable position of the Kama Sutra that could phuck her. At that point, she either cease and desist all contact with the Manties or accept that she is -- indeed, without ambiguity -- a traitor.

After Beowulf successfully divorced her husband -- effectively rescuing herself from murky waters -- then, and only then, did she have free [rein reign], since technically both apply, to sleep with whomever she pleases.

See how the analogy to marriage makes it so clear?

Everything you say is quite correct from the point of view of the Mandarins and the SLN (note the source of your quote here).

That does not mean that the citizens of Beowulf have to accept that interpretation and the language that RFC used in the passage quoted by the previous post makes that clear that they do not. The ambiguity is between what Beowulf believes is right and what the Mandarins believe that they are due.

A declaration of war is not moot because someone else has issued one or taken warlike actions (see Field of Dishonor); it still has important legal consequences. The USA still declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor, then on Germany and Italy after Hitler declared war on the USA.

cthia wrote:I'm sure I was correct way back when, when I imagined the Mandarins had to be desperate to find legal justification in the Constitution for accusing Beowulf of treason. They would have offered a King's Ranson for the passage. The payout goes to filbert. 1 TUFT full of gold-pressed latinum. Well done . . .

SLNS Camperdown
Hypatia Planetary Orbit
Hypatia System

“How would you assess the reliability of this intelligence, Captain Adenauer?” Madhura Yang-O’Grady asked. She sat back in her chair, rubbing her eyes—it was the middle of Camperdown’s shipboard night, and she’d been in bed for less than an hour before she was dragged back out of it. “Obviously, we have to take it seriously, but do you believe it’s reliable or simply a product of the rumor mill?”

“Ma’am, that’s a question I can’t answer,” Hajdu Gyôzô’s intelligence officer replied. “It comes from a Gendarme who, according to the system datafiles they sent out with us, is both apolitical and a career investigator. On the face of it, that would incline me to believe she wouldn’t be reporting rumors unless she thought there was a lot of truth in them, and that she’s trained to recognize when there is. From the perspective of whether or not she’s telling us what she really thinks, I don’t think there’s much question about her reliability. I might add that she was obviously stressed and unhappy in the data packet she encrypted and fired out to us. This is a woman who didn’t like what she was doing but did it anyway, because that was her duty.”

“So you think it is reliable?”

“Ma’am, the distinction I’m trying to make is between truthful and accurate, and the two aren’t always the same. She’s definitely not lying to us. The question is whether or not what she thinks she knows is accurate, and that’s what I can’t assess.”

“We understand the line you’re drawing, Denton,” Hajdu said. “On the other hand, you have to have some sort of feel for whether or not it’s likely to be accurate.”

“Yes, Sir.” Adenauer recognized Hajdu’s fish-or-cut-bait tone. He didn’t like it, but he did recognize it, and he inhaled deeply.

“First,” he began, “it would make a lot of sense. If the Hypatians are going to secede from the League and ask for political union with Beowulf, it would be logical for them to take the next step and request a protective naval presence here in Hypatia. The system authorities would have to be careful about how they handled that, at least until the referendum vote was tabulated, because direct contact with the Manties or the ‘Grand Alliance’ would be treason, now that the Manties have declared war on us. Contact simply with Beowulf might not be construed that way by the Federal Government. Direct military talks with Manticore certainly would be, and the last thing they’d want would be to have the local Gendarmes arresting their System President, his cabinet, or members of the Yerousía—I mean their Senate—for treason on the eve of the referendum.

“So, from that perspective, an invitation to the Manties to send a substantial naval force after the referendum vote’s been certified would be a logical step. In fact, our operational planning assumed that was exactly what they would do.

The bold and the boldness to underline the bold is my own, and not the author's.


There's nothing ambiguous about the notion, which doesn't bode well for the question of whether Beowulf is guilty of treason. I tried to point that out to everyone so fastened to the letter of the law about there not being a Declaration of War by the Solarians, it became a moot point, when the Manticorans declared war!

That is when Beowulf found herself in an untenable position of the Kama Sutra that could phuck her. At that point, she either cease and desist all contact with the Manties or accept that she is -- indeed, without ambiguity -- a traitor.

After Beowulf successfully divorced her husband -- effectively rescuing herself from murky waters -- then, and only then, did she have free [rein reign], since technically both apply, to sleep with whomever she pleases.

See how the analogy to marriage makes it so clear?

tlb wrote:Everything you say is quite correct from the point of view of the Mandarins and the SLN (note the source of your quote here).

That does not mean that the citizens of Beowulf have to accept that interpretation and the language that RFC used in the passage quoted by the previous post makes that clear that they do not. The ambiguity is between what Beowulf believes is right and what the Mandarins believe that they are due.

A declaration of war is not moot because someone else has issued one or taken warlike actions (see Field of Dishonor); it still has important legal consequences. The USA still declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor, then on Germany and Italy after Hitler declared war on the USA.

Playing by your rules, the words RFC issues in the previous passage are obviously ascribed to the Constitution, not of some wishful thinking of the Mandarins. You even lose when playing by your own rules -- the Constitution and RFCs own language at ten paces.

RFCs language is clear. Quite clear. Admitting guilt of treason did not come out of the mouth of babes, well, a hot babe, perhaps, but a well respected member of Beowulf's own bar.

But then, to be fair to you, perhaps you would be right by inference, that one of America's states in the middle of attempting to secede, who actively sought out, colluded with, and furnished weapons and munitions to North Korea or Iran to help them defeat us, would not be guilty of treason. Let alone, after, either had declared war on us.*

Give it up, tlb, stop arguing the sky isn't falling, while it's pooling around your feet. Your arguments are becoming sad and you are beginning to embarrass yourself.

*And if anyone comes back with that LAME ASS analogy to NATO, to try and get Beowulf off the hook, I'm going to scream.

For the record . . .

tlb wrote:You like some of the things that Devorah Ophir-Giacconi says, yet object to my pointing to "ambiguous"; but that came from her. Note that I am saying RFC was not imprecise, if you look at all the words; not just the ones that you like.

I do not object to your pointing out Giacconi's use of "ambiguous." I simply disagree what she meant, or was referencing, which I tackled in the appropriate post. The ambiguity and middle ground, is while they were in the act of seceding and whether their successful secession absolves them of any past treason.

Her admittance to treason is clear. Giacconi did not say it was ambiguous. What she said is . . .

“No,” Ophir-Giacconi said. “We were traitors while, as a member of the Solarian League, we were actively aiding and comforting a star nation—arguably, three star nations, really—who are in a state of war against the League.

SHE DID NOT SAY . . .

“No,” Ophir-Giacconi said. “It is ambiguous whether we were traitors while, as a member of the Solarian League, we were actively aiding and comforting a star nation—arguably, three star nations, really—who are in a state of war against the League.

Now, the answer to THIS is AMBIGUOUS . . .

Now we’re either an independent star nation or we’re rebels.

Also, for the record, I DO NOT particularly like what Giaconni said, or rather, like that it is true. The passage makes it clear that Giaconni doesn't like it either, detesting the League as she does. I hate the fact that Beowulf made certain bad decisions.

BUT!

Truth is truth! Giaconni and I both recognize that, whether we like it or not.

cthia wrote:Also, for the record, I DO NOT particularly like what Giaconni said, or rather, like that it is true. The passage makes it clear that Giaconni doesn't like it either, detesting the League as she does. I hate the fact that Beowulf made certain bad decisions.

BUT!

Truth is truth! Giaconni and I both recognize that, whether we like it or not.

You are still trying to skirt around the following statements in the passage:

I hope no one will be offended if I say, speaking as the Republic's Chief attorney, how deeply relieved I am to be out of what we might charitably call a legally ambiguous situation.
...
I doubt anyone in Old Chicago’s interested in our interpretation, but it is a matter of public record. And as a nitpicking attorney, I’m glad to get out of the moral and legal middleground.”
...
She probably had a point there, Benton-Ramirez y Chou acknowledged. There was a certain legal and moral…murkiness to the Republic of Beowulf’s actions over the last seven months or so—starting with the decision to warn both Landing and Nouveau Paris about Filareta’s impending attack—regardless of how justified its position might be.

The words "legally ambiguous", "moral and legal middleground" and "legal and moral…murkiness" would not be used (provided RFC is being precise), if the participants really believed they had done anything majorly wrong. Which makes the use of the word "traitor" ironic, referring to the attitude of the Mandarins, rather than an actual admission of guilt.

In a divorce, there does not have to be hanky-panky for the participants to have strong negative feeling about each other, particularly if one believes the other has done wrong (whether the other accepts that or not). Even if the Beowulf separation was amicable, the SLN would still have attacked when it did; because they learned that Beowulf had a missile assembly line for Manticore.

Since I am quite happy to accept that you have captured the Solarian government's attitude exactly, why are you insistent that I accept that the leaders of Beowulf believe that they have done less than their best? Is it possible that your concept of karma only works if the leaders of Beowulf understand that they have done something wrong?

Since I was thrust at the wheel again, I'd like to kick this thing into overdrive. But first, to tidy up a few loose ends.

tlb wrote:In a divorce, there does not have to be hanky-panky for the participants to have strong negative feeling about each other, particularly if one believes the other has done wrong (whether the other accepts that or not).

I agree, for the most part. But treason goes way beyond anything as simple as "irreconcilable differences," as far as the "League" is concerned, and it is obvious that "irreconcilable differences" falls far short of any need to commit treason, complicity, duplicity, and moral bankruptcy, as far as Beowulf is concerned.

tlb wrote: Even if the Beowulf separation was amicable, the SLN would still have attacked when it did; because they learned that Beowulf had a missile assembly line for Manticore.

As far as the assembly line goes, do you blame them? So you're probably correct there. But, it would be dismissed in a court of law as hearsay. What is important to the court is that it wasn't amicable. And I'm not sure divorce ever really can be amicable, in this situation. A situation after the couple has amassed lots of material stuff together, a big old luxurious house with an attached garage full of ships, a basement full of electronics, and a nice big old interstate highway with lots of businesses grown up around it, and kids. In most of these situations, how amicable can it be for the husband. He normally gets shafted.

How amicable can handing the keys to the city, Lockheed's manufacturing plant, and the interstate Hwy leading directly back into the husband's home to the longtime enemy she intends to marry, be? Someone with whom she has been involved in immoral acts all along? That's anything, but amicable, actually, it's garishly disrespectful, confrontationally spiteful, and maybe a tad bit irresponsible to her well being, and to her kids.

tlb wrote:Since I am quite happy to accept that you have captured the Solarian government's attitude exactly, why are you insistent that I accept that the leaders of Beowulf believe that they have done less than their best?

Now hold on just a second. I never believed myself that the leaders of Beowulf actually believed they did less than their best. Storyline is chock full of examples where the actual truth is much different than what somebody actually believes. The Solarians are a case in point. However, once upon a time, the Manties and the Peeps wore the same ill-fitting slipper before they ever woke up to the truth about the existence of the MA, too.

At any rate, what I'm trying to get you to accept is the fact that they did do less than their best, by a long shot. Even if we only measure their shortcomings by their morals, scruples and values. Ignoring the charge of treason.

tlb wrote:Is it possible that your concept of karma only works if the leaders of Beowulf understand that they have done something wrong?

Actually, no. Karma isn't human, nor does she exhibit the same human necessity to serve its dish cold. Karma's evil twin, is a cold enough witch as it is.

My concept of Karma? People fail to understand that Karma has evolved.

tlb wrote:You are free to believe that they were both legally and morally wrong; just as I can believe they were not morally wrong and technically not legally wrong because there was no formal declaration of war on the part of the Solarian government.

If I understand you clearly, during peacetime traitors will be pardoned for treason, complicity and collusion, or, are somehow exempt?

tlb wrote:Things are not as severe as you paint them unless RFC is being imprecise in his language. Note that the situation prior to the secession is described as "legally ambiguous", "moral and legal middleground" and "legal and moral murkiness". If the participants really believed that they were guilty of treason (as opposed to being considered traitors by the Mandarins), then those words would be much too mild. They were in a legal and moral murk because their obligations to friends and family at Manticore were being tested by the corrupt government of the Solarian League. They chose to resolve the ambiguity by seceding, which is not your favored course of action; but is as moral and legal as anything you propose.

Then by the same token, Giaconni's words admitting to being guilty of treason should be way over the top. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Moreover, a wife can't solve being caught red-handed being an adulterer by seeking divorce.

Pavel Young can't shirk his responsibilities to his navy by seceding from a battle and hauling ass, in the middle of a war.

tlb wrote:As to why they did not believe their actions while part of the League were illegal, that is explained by a quote from A Rising Thunder:

ART,pg 185 wrote:There's been no declaration of war, and Article Five of the Constitution specifically denies the federal government authority to dictate to system governments in time of peace.

I understand that, and in the midst of concentrating on getting the hell out of the mess they'd founded, they made a few miscalculations. Many of them. For a while there, the line they crossed was of a moral concern. When Manticore declared war, all of the murkiness became a moot point. It became clear. Crystal. It doesn't matter if you don't want to have a knock-down-drag out fight with your neighbor. If he's loaded for bear coming up your driveway to beat your ass, you better be prepared to meet him. Whether or not I've declared war or he's declared war is also a moot point if an enemy's actions are confrontational. See current politics.

tlb wrote:I am just highlighting the words used by RFC, which do not lend themselves to the idea that the people in the discussion really believed that they were morally wrong;
snip

I'm willing to compromise on this one point. Morality, like religion, can be a quite personal thing. Beowulf may very well like the moral grounds she stands on. Personally, I agree with Theisman that at the end of the day, "Your responsibility is to your own people." But, who are Beowulf's people? Her own founding and its billions? Or the lovely studs she's been cavorting with over on the Manty side of the fence? More importantly, how does Beowulf answer that question?

tlb wrote:You are free to believe that they were both legally and morally wrong; just as I can believe they were not morally wrong and technically not legally wrong because there was no formal declaration of war on the part of the Solarian government.

Yet there were acts of Manty aggression against the SL, regardless of who started it. The Harrington Plan is an act of war. What is the SL supposed to do when an enemy is gearing up for war, stand idly by until they get all of their ducks in a row?

tlb wrote:I think the legal interpretation is the one that I quoted from ART. I also agree that the text you put in quotes can be considered treason in war time, but the Solarian League has not declared war. Just as in the book Field of Dishonor, there is an important distinction; certain acts by the Solarian government can legally only follow such a declaration. That is the same problem with your civil war analogy, the statement "especially while in the middle of a war" does not hold true in the absence of a declaration.

But, it holds true in the presence of treason, collusion, agression and threats of imploding the Solarian League with a plan of economic warfare, and compromising and soliciting a major League member to assist in doing so.

I tried to point out to everyone so fastened to the "letter of the law" about there not being a Declaration of War by the Solarians, that it became a moot point, when the Manticorans declared war! That fact, and the material we've covered thus far can be found in a beginners handbook. I'd like to move on to more advanced notions. We've been in this class for a little over a year, but I was trying not to leave anyone behind. I'll probably ruffle a lot of feathers when I pontificate about exactly what point the Manties technically declared war, regardless of the date of any official notification. Lacoon certainly was an economic WAR waged against the League. But, it's a moot point, because the Harrington Plan, itself, is war!

I probably should hide out in a series of caves like Saddam Hussein before coming out again?

cthia wrote:Since I was thrust at the wheel again, I'd like to kick this thing into overdrive. But first, to tidy up a few loose ends.

SNIP SNIP SNIP


But, it holds true in the presence of treason, collusion, agression and threats of imploding the Solarian League with a plan of economic warfare and soliciting a majaor League member to assist.

I tried to point out to everyone so fastened to the "letter of the law" about there not being a Declaration of War by the Solarians, that it became a moot point, when the Manticorans declared war! That fact, and the material we've covered thus far can be found in a beginners handbook. I'd like to move on to more advanced notions. We've been in this class for a little over a year, but I was trying not to leave anyone behind. I'll probably ruffle a lot of feathers when I pontificate about exactly what point the Manties technically declared war, regardless of the date of any official notification. Lacoon certainly was an economic WAR waged against the League. But, it's a moot point, because the Harrington Plan, itself, is war!

I probably should hide out in a series of caves like Saddam Hussein before coming out again?

You havent been arguing about the text at all, Cthia. This issue is something personal to you, in your personal life. The interstellar relationship between Beowulf and anyone else is NOT SEXUAL. Get your mind out of your pants, pleeease!

If after reading RFC's post (which you did, yesterday) you ought to have figured out that Beowulf has no obligation to support the Mandarins or the SLN (which have been carrying out those EE violations in the verge for a looooong time. They have spent hundreds of years trying to fix the SL from within and been blocked constantly in the Assembly by the abusers.

Eventually, you get rid of the abusive and overbearing spouse, to put it in your own words.
In another thread, the author has pointed out that the ROGUE REGIME whose mindset you are so insistant on channeling was, by their OWN INTERSTELLAR CONVENANTS,TREATIES, and PROTOCALS in violation of the Deneb Accords, the Beowulf Treaty mentioned in Saltash, their own Shingaine Wormhole Convention--and their own Constitution, in mobilizing for war without the consent of the Assembly. Nor do they, or have they ever, told the people of their own State (the League citizens, you know?) the truth about anything at all.

By the time Manticore activated Lacöon, Solarians had a) been involved in terrorism in Talbot via Monica; b)fired on and destroyed 3 naval vessels with all hands, without a warning; c) refused to cooperate with local authorities in investigating the incident, instead precipitating an engagement (New Tuscany Incident II); and c)permitted a Naval invasion of Spindle.

All of that before they implemented the defensive plan to kill, not millions of spacers, or the entire SLN, but the revenue stream that keeps your CRIMINAL COTERIE of outright sociopaths in power.

And, even after the loss of Crandall's fleet, they couldn't go to the Assembly and get a declaration of war. Not even when they were already lying to the public about all of the above events.

I know you like to argue, but your analogies in this bother me a lot. You are essentially arguing that all of our Founding Fathers should be lined up on the wall and shot as traitors; that spousal rape is acceptable; that no one should ever resist a regime that takes their cue from the Fascist or Soviet propaganda of the war years. . . .

Frankly, you ought to be ashamed of being able to think like they do. Stop gloating, or you will put your arm out of joint patting yourself on the back.

Rob


made a correction regarding Spindle. rtt

cthia wrote:I tried to point out to everyone so fastened to the "letter of the law" about there not being a Declaration of War by the Solarians, that it became a moot point, when the Manticorans declared war! That fact, and the material we've covered thus far can be found in a beginners handbook. I'd like to move on to more advanced notions. We've been in this class for a little over a year, but I was trying not to leave anyone behind. I'll probably ruffle a lot of feathers when I pontificate about exactly what point the Manties technically declared war, regardless of the date of any official notification. Lacoon certainly was an economic WAR waged against the League. But, it's a moot point, because the Harrington Plan, itself, is war!

I probably should hide out in a series of caves like Saddam Hussein before coming out again?

Yes, we can stipulate that there have been many acts of was between Manticore and the Solarian League: fomenting terrorism, attacking Monica, Byng's actions, Crandall's actions and even Laccoon and the Harrington plan (I am fuzzy on when Manticore's actual declaration of war falls into this timeline).

But a declaration of war by the Solarian's in return is not moot; because Article 5 of the Constitution specifically denies the federal government authority to dictate to system governments in time of peace. The trigger for that authority is voting the declaration, because that is the system governments ceding authority to the federal government. This is the point of Article 5, it is to ensure that there is a democratic authorization of the war making powers. That is why there are declarations of war in general, to indicate that the constituents are united behind the military. Often there are other authorizations that flow from it; in Manticore, it allowed for special taxation (see Field of Dishonor).

You are still trying to skirt around the following statements in the passage:

I hope no one will be offended if I say, speaking as the Republic's Chief attorney, how deeply relieved I am to be out of what we might charitably call a legally ambiguous situation.
...
I doubt anyone in Old Chicago’s interested in our interpretation, but it is a matter of public record. And as a nitpicking attorney, I’m glad to get out of the moral and legal middleground.”
...
She probably had a point there, Benton-Ramirez y Chou acknowledged. There was a certain legal and moral…murkiness to the Republic of Beowulf’s actions over the last seven months or so—starting with the decision to warn both Landing and Nouveau Paris about Filareta’s impending attack—regardless of how justified its position might be.

The words "legally ambiguous", "moral and legal middleground" and "legal and moral…murkiness" would not be used (provided RFC is being precise), if the participants really believed they had done anything majorly wrong.
Which makes the use of the word "traitor" ironic, referring to the attitude of the Mandarins, rather than an actual admission of guilt.

You have fastened on the use of the word "traitor" by Devorah Ophir-Giacconi; but ignore that she was the one to also say "legally ambiguous" and "moral and legal middleground"; then you accuse me of trying to have my cake and eat it too, when you are the one that refused to reconcile the combination. I do reconcile it by saying "traitor' is being used ironically in the entire discussion.