A single SD-based Space Station

thinkstoomuch wrote:Snip...

Do we know if it is even possible to raise the wedge on one fusion plant?

...Snip

Honor Among Enemies, Chapter 5 wrote:That was the biggest weakness of Trojan Horse, for the Caravan class were true merchantmen—big, slow, bumbling freighters, without armor, without military-grade drives, without internal compartmentalization or a warship's sophisticated damage control remotes. Their hulls were the flattened, double-ended spindles of any impeller drive vessel, but they'd been laid out to maximize cargo-handling efficiency, without a warship's "hammer head" ends, where the hull flared back out to mount powerful chase armaments. They'd also been built with only one power plant apiece which, like many of their vital systems, was deliberately placed close to the skins of their hulls to facilitate access for maintenance and repair. Unfortunately, that also exposed it to hostile fire, and though Vulcan had added a second fusion plant deep inside Wayfarer's hull, no one in her right mind would ever consider her a "proper" warship.

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 13 wrote:"Of course, the designers can cut some corners when they design a LAC. For one thing, they don't try to build in a power plant which can meet all requirements out of current generating capacity. Ton-for-ton, LACs have enormous capacitor rings, much larger than anything else's, even an SD. They're a lot smaller in absolute terms, naturally, given the difference in size between the ships involved, but most energy-armed LACs rely on the capacitor rings to power their offensive armament, and a lot of them rely on the capacitors even for their point-defense clusters. And not even a superdreadnought has enough onboard power generation to bring its wedge up initially without using its capacitors. Just maintaining it once it is up, even with the energy-siphon effect when it twists over into hyper, requires a huge investment in power, and initiating the impeller bands in the first place raises the power requirement exponentially. So even when they're not doing anything else, most warships tend to have at least one fusion plant on-line to charge up their capacitor rings . . . and, of course, a LAC only has one power plant, and just keeping it up and running requires its own not insubstantial power investment.

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 13 wrote:"But like you, I was thinking about the hardware side of his report and wishing the Board had been given a chance to see it before it issued its official conclusions," the citizen admiral went on. "Not that it would have convinced the doubters . . . or even me—fully, I mean—I suppose. It just doesn't seem possible that even the Manties could squeeze a fusion plant, and a full set of beta nodes, down into a LAC hull and then find room to cram in a godawful graser like the one Diamato described, as well!"
"I've never really understood that," Honeker said, admitting a degree of technical ignorance no "proper" people's commissioner would display. "I mean, we put fusion plants into pinnaces, and isn't a LAC just a scaled-up pinnace, when all's said and done?"
"Um." Tourville scratched an eyebrow while he considered the best way to explain. "I can see why you might think that," he acknowledged after a moment, "but it's not just a matter of scale. Or, rather, it is a matter of scale, in a way, but one in which the difference is so great as to create a difference in kind, as well.
"A pinnace has a far weaker wedge than any regular warship or merchantman. It's enormously smaller, for one thing, not more than a kilometer in width, and less powerful. The little hip-pocket fusion plants we put into small craft couldn't even begin to power an all-up wedge for a ship the size of a LAC. Which is just as well, because they use old-fashioned mag bottle technology and laser-fired fusing that's not a lot more advanced than they were using back on Old Earth Ante Diaspora. We've made a hell of a lot of advances since then, of course, in order to shoehorn the plants down to fit into pinnaces, but the way they're built puts a low absolute ceiling on their output.
"Even the biggest pinnace or assault shuttle comes in at well under a thousand tons, though, and a worthwhile LAC has to be in the thirty- to fifty-thousand-ton range just to pack in its impellers and any armament at all. Remember that courier boats in the same size range don't carry any weapons or defenses and just barely manage to find someplace to squeeze in a hyper generator. A LAC may be smaller than a starship, but it still has to be able to achieve high acceleration rates (which means a military grade compensator), produce sidewalls, power its weapons—and find places to mount them—and generally act like a serious warship, or else people would simply ignore it. Which means that, like any starship, LACs need modern grav-fusing plants to maintain the power levels they require. And there are limits on how small you can make one of those."
The citizen vice admiral twitched a shrug.

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 13 wrote:"Even the biggest pinnace or assault shuttle comes in at well under a thousand tons, though, and a worthwhile LAC has to be in the thirty- to fifty-thousand-ton range just to pack in its impellers and any armament at all. Remember that courier boats in the same size range don't carry any weapons or defenses and just barely manage to find someplace to squeeze in a hyper generator.

The E wrote:

Jeroswen wrote:First I appreciate the point by point critique. I'll take your last point first. Telling someone you can probably liberate them in a week sounds great as long as you aren't standing on the planet when it happens. Worse yet, you are refusing to give them equipment that will cost you nothing for them to pick up.

But that requires being strong everywhere, which as we know is just not possible. The nodal fleet model is the only way to protect a large area with enough force to be effective while at the same time keeping enough forces ready for offensive action.

As for the "costs nothing" thing: True, Manticore could distribute these ships at very low cost. But unless the new operators can be vetted to do nothing untoward with them, this is a risky proposition, especially considering the chaos that is about to break out in League space. What happens when one of the beneficiaries of this arms transfer turns out to be another Warnecke?

Jeroswen wrote:I can understand your point but even if I guess wrong 20% of the time 4 systems out of 5 will be protected from another Warnecke. Those odds I like. Its easy to sit on your hands and do nothing. It takes risks to get things done.

The argument you make falls flat when you call the ships junk on one hand and not worth anything, and then worry about what harm they could do in the wrong hands. You can't have it both ways.

Uroboros wrote:

Jeroswen wrote:I can understand your point but even if I guess wrong 20% of the time 4 systems out of 5 will be protected from another Warnecke. Those odds I like. Its easy to sit on your hands and do nothing. It takes risks to get things done.

The argument you make falls flat when you call the ships junk on one hand and not worth anything, and then worry about what harm they could do in the wrong hands. You can't have it both ways.

The ships are junk. While the idea of handing off an old-fashioned SD that you are handing off an old-fashioned SD. The SDs are completely worthless except as scrap. While the lighter units might be able to be repurposed, it's a bit doubtful weather or not they will since the Manticore is sort of lacking any yard space. Haven would have that space, but it is the only industrial power in the GA right now and it's going to have better things to do with its time and energy than convert a bunch of old-style light units.

For one, while you could probably scare up a crew in nearly every system that you could potentially put them in, you have to find people to train a crew to actually use the equipment, and use it effectively. That requires a large pool of people who are trained in now-obsolete technology and willing to train the people going to use it.

You not only have to turn them into competent spacers, but you have to train them individually for each job the ship needs doing. If we are to use the Manticoran standard, an officer takes at least four years of training, while an enlisted officer takes around two. If you were going to use conscripts, your officers would actually take longer to train, due to the fact that they now have to do everything that enlisted personnel would have been trained to be doing. Even with accelerated program, the time to train people is going to be lengthy.

Nor is any of this really necessary in Talbott or Silesia. A spread of missile pods and some new-style LACs are really all that's needed to defend systems against local pirates and any raid the Sollys could put together. Nor would it really be a priority in Silesia, as Sarnow has a well-equipped fleet and no enemy at the doorstep to fight.

tinfoil wrote:"Gift" them to a polity that you are not particularly happy with or want to weigh down.

Go look up the wiki entry for "White Elephant".
Solarian SDs fit the classic definition to a 'tee'.

Give a tinpot leader a squadron of SDs to own would (in the short term) make him very happy with you, but would immediately soak up all of his or her resources trying to keep in them in service.

Every reason for the GA to not want them is equally valid for all of the 'other guys' too. But the other guys might not know this!

fallsfromtrees wrote:

tinfoil wrote:"Gift" them to a polity that you are not particularly happy with or want to weigh down.

Go look up the wiki entry for "White Elephant".
Solarian SDs fit the classic definition to a 'tee'.

Give a tinpot leader a squadron of SDs to own would (in the short term) make him very happy with you, but would immediately soak up all of his or her resources trying to keep in them in service.

Every reason for the GA to not want them is equally valid for all of the 'other guys' too. But the other guys might not know this!

This may actually be the best suggestion I have heard of for dealing with the old Sollie SDs. Of course, you could be laying up some problems for the future.

Vince wrote:Definitely one of the best ideas yet! But not as White Elephants. In keeping with the naval theme of (most of) the Honorverse books, I suggest the term: 'An albatross around the neck'.*

* From the The Rime of the Ancient Mariner.