Yawata strike

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Joat42 wrote:snip for brevity
I have an unlikely idea what force showed up at Mesa, the Mannerheim SDF. It's convoluted enough and it means that MAlign can keep overt control of Mesa through Mannerheim.

Very Unlikely - the role of an SDF is System Defense - hot haring off to other places on quixotic notions of good doing, and while the top levels on Mannerheim society are members of the MAlign, I doubt that most of the SDF is, so they are going to be going WTF? when told to stop defending the home system and go trotting off to Mesa.

Actually, the text says that Alpha, Beta, and Gamma lines dominate the officer corps of the Mannerheim SDF. That's how the Alignment was able to shift Mannerheim ships around so easily. For instance, everyone on the bridge of the ships stationed at the Twins was in the Alignment, and no one aboard who was not in the Alignment knew where the ships really were. Also, if the Mannerheim SDF showed up at Mesa, it would not be because of a "quixotic notion of good doing". It would be because (publicly) Mannerheim is as strongly opposed to genetic slavery as Manticore is. It would basically be Mannerheim declaring war on Mesa.

It's an interesting idea that I haven't heard before. Personally, I'm fairly confident the incoming fleet is Admiral Henke, but I can't find fault with this idea. It would certainly be unexpected, and throw a huge twist on things.

Joat42 wrote:snip for brevity
I have an unlikely idea what force showed up at Mesa, the Mannerheim SDF. It's convoluted enough and it means that MAlign can keep overt control of Mesa through Mannerheim.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Very Unlikely - the role of an SDF is System Defense - hot haring off to other places on quixotic notions of good doing, and while the top levels on Mannerheim society are members of the MAlign, I doubt that most of the SDF is, so they are going to be going WTF? when told to stop defending the home system and go trotting off to Mesa.

SWM wrote:Actually, the text says that Alpha, Beta, and Gamma lines dominate the officer corps of the Mannerheim SDF. That's how the Alignment was able to shift Mannerheim ships around so easily. For instance, everyone on the bridge of the ships stationed at the Twins was in the Alignment, and no one aboard who was not in the Alignment knew where the ships really were. Also, if the Mannerheim SDF showed up at Mesa, it would not be because of a "quixotic notion of good doing". It would be because (publicly) Mannerheim is as strongly opposed to genetic slavery as Manticore is. It would basically be Mannerheim declaring war on Mesa.

It's an interesting idea that I haven't heard before. Personally, I'm fairly confident the incoming fleet is Admiral Henke, but I can't find fault with this idea. It would certainly be unexpected, and throw a huge twist on things.

I will concede to your superior knowledge of text. I still think that it is very unlikely - everyone on the ships at the Twins haad been told that they were defending Mannerheim's claim to a wormhole, which can certainly be passed off as system defense. Attacking Mesa is not going to be so easy, and is too likely to cause questions to be asked that the MAlign would really not like being asked at this time.

From Torch of Freedom, Ch 50, page 449 (hb), six pages into the chapter:

<snipping the first few sentences of the para> "... The reason Ganneau's squadron had drawn the duty of watching the Alignment's end of the Verdant Vista Bridge in the first place was that judicious personnel assignments similar to those which had been tweaked in Task Force Four's favor had led - purely coincidentally, of course - to the Sixth Battlecruiser Squadron's being exclusively officered and manned by what happened to be Mesan star-lines. None of them was going to mention what had happened to anyone else, but if a Manticoran survey vessel had been brought in by vessels of the Mannerheim System-Defense Force..."

(emphasis is added by me.)

So not "everyone on the bridges" of the ships at SGC-902-36-G was Alignment. Rather, literally everyone on those ships is Alignment.

That particular squadron, as a whole, can be assumed to pretty much know that they are on station really in service of the Mesan Alignment, rather than Mannerheim pe se, and that they are guarding a wormhole terminus that is significant to the Alignment. Most probably don't know exactly where it leads, but they know that they blew away a Manticoran survey vessel, and they are star-lines, so they can probably figure out a lot of the other pieces of the puzzle...and never say a word.

Joat42 wrote:I have an unlikely idea what force showed up at Mesa, the Mannerheim SDF. It's convoluted enough and it means that MAlign can keep overt control of Mesa through Mannerheim.

That's certainly intriguing and would be quite a twist.

Houdini should have meant for the Alignment that retaining control of Mesa was no longer important. It may not be useless - as others have noted, even the people and records that are left may offer some breadcrumbs under enough careful analysis - but at least not crucial, and they had to get out while they could get out. If they had a tame occupation force ready to come and sort out Mesa, then leaving would not be necessary.

Going in and occupying Mesa may represent more attention drawn to it than Mannerheim would care to have at this time. It may be a little early still to spin that as one of the first heroic acts of the Renaissance Factor to hold on to slipping civilization and reconstitute it on a better basis, and if the League makes any provision for its members hauling off and practicing war on other star nations without it, it's got to be at least politically awkward.

On the other hand, giving the League another awkward situation, playing up a conflict between its actual constitution and its extreme deference to "systems rights" and the tradition of it pretending to be an actual state, may be a strain the Alignment wants to put on the League.

JeffEngel wrote:

Joat42 wrote:I have an unlikely idea what force showed up at Mesa, the Mannerheim SDF. It's convoluted enough and it means that MAlign can keep overt control of Mesa through Mannerheim.

That's certainly intriguing and would be quite a twist.

Houdini should have meant for the Alignment that retaining control of Mesa was no longer important. It may not be useless - as others have noted, even the people and records that are left may offer some breadcrumbs under enough careful analysis - but at least not crucial, and they had to get out while they could get out. If they had a tame occupation force ready to come and sort out Mesa, then leaving would not be necessary.

Going in and occupying Mesa may represent more attention drawn to it than Mannerheim would care to have at this time. It may be a little early still to spin that as one of the first heroic acts of the Renaissance Factor to hold on to slipping civilization and reconstitute it on a better basis, and if the League makes any provision for its members hauling off and practicing war on other star nations without it, it's got to be at least politically awkward.

On the other hand, giving the League another awkward situation, playing up a conflict between its actual constitution and its extreme deference to "systems rights" and the tradition of it pretending to be an actual state, may be a strain the Alignment wants to put on the League.

The Alignment could spin it a bit differently. For instance, Mannerheim could say that they have been examining Manticore's claims that Mesa is behind some of the recent unpleasantness. Following their long tradition of opposing genetic slavery, Mannerheim has decided that now is the time to take a decisive step to end genetic slavery and investigate Manticore's claims, by seizing Mesa.

And in the ensuing interstellar debate, other like-minded systems could rally to the call of ending genetic slavery, forming some kind of coalition. Call it . . . the Renaissance Factor, in honor of the Renaissance Association.

Yes, I can see how the Alignment could spin a move like this to their advantage.

SWM wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Going in and occupying Mesa may represent more attention drawn to it than Mannerheim would care to have at this time. It may be a little early still to spin that as one of the first heroic acts of the Renaissance Factor to hold on to slipping civilization and reconstitute it on a better basis, and if the League makes any provision for its members hauling off and practicing war on other star nations without it, it's got to be at least politically awkward.

On the other hand, giving the League another awkward situation, playing up a conflict between its actual constitution and its extreme deference to "systems rights" and the tradition of it pretending to be an actual state, may be a strain the Alignment wants to put on the League.

The Alignment could spin it a bit differently. For instance, Mannerheim could say that they have been examining Manticore's claims that Mesa is behind some of the recent unpleasantness. Following their long tradition of opposing genetic slavery, Mannerheim has decided that now is the time to take a decisive step to end genetic slavery and investigate Manticore's claims, by seizing Mesa.

And in the ensuing interstellar debate, other like-minded systems could rally to the call of ending genetic slavery, forming some kind of coalition. Call it . . . the Renaissance Factor, in honor of the Renaissance Association.

Yes, I can see how the Alignment could spin a move like this to their advantage.

Ooo, yeah. And that would actually be a genuine improvisation on the Plan based on emerging circumstances rather than just tweaking timing of bits of it. For that matter, they would possibly invite a League constitutional crisis that would lead to Mannerheim's moral leadership of a reconstituted League sooner. "Look, the Mandarins have shown they can't do more than get our SLN crews and ships killed fumbling with Manticore. We're capable of open minds and judicious action - unlike the decadent bureaucrats on the one side and the overly zealous, prickly outworlders on the other. Six centuries Old Chicago has let Mesa be. No more. We're putting a stop to it."

Mission report: Can of worms opened. Plan succeeded. Debate ensuing.

Having MSDF contain the situation at Mesa will twist the plot into pretzels. It would be so much more interesting than just Henke showing up.

With that said, in all likelihood it's Henke and her taskforce that arrived at Mesa but I do think that RFC has some things up his sleeve regarding what will happen next with Mesa and Henke.

Joat42 wrote:Mission report: Can of worms opened. Plan succeeded. Debate ensuing.

Having MSDF contain the situation at Mesa will twist the plot into pretzels. It would be so much more interesting than just Henke showing up.

With that said, in all likelihood it's Henke and her taskforce that arrived at Mesa but I do think that RFC has some things up his sleeve regarding what will happen next with Mesa and Henke.

It's not the MSDF though that would have been a fun pretzel. General Drescher is negotiating a cease fire towards Palane & Cachat to save her own skin from who? the Andermani? who might not even really know Thandi exists, except by "data chip"? hmmmm... Henke? who DOES know Thandi by name because of Michael Oversteegen and Helen Zilwicki's current assignment in her fleet?

SharkHunter wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Mission report: Can of worms opened. Plan succeeded. Debate ensuing.

Having MSDF contain the situation at Mesa will twist the plot into pretzels. It would be so much more interesting than just Henke showing up.

With that said, in all likelihood it's Henke and her taskforce that arrived at Mesa but I do think that RFC has some things up his sleeve regarding what will happen next with Mesa and Henke.

It's not the MSDF though that would have been a fun pretzel. General Drescher is negotiating a cease fire towards Palane & Cachat to save her own skin from who? the Andermani? who might not even really know Thandi exists, except by "data chip"? hmmmm... Henke? who DOES know Thandi by name because of Michael Oversteegen and Helen Zilwicki's current assignment in her fleet?

Drescher was placed in a heck of a poor position, wasn't she? I wonder if her withdrawal from the towe happened on her own initiative oe as a result of orders from higher up...

Don

SharkHunter wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Mission report: Can of worms opened. Plan succeeded. Debate ensuing.

Having MSDF contain the situation at Mesa will twist the plot into pretzels. It would be so much more interesting than just Henke showing up.

With that said, in all likelihood it's Henke and her taskforce that arrived at Mesa but I do think that RFC has some things up his sleeve regarding what will happen next with Mesa and Henke.

It's not the MSDF though that would have been a fun pretzel. General Drescher is negotiating a cease fire towards Palane & Cachat to save her own skin from who? the Andermani? who might not even really know Thandi exists, except by "data chip"? hmmmm... Henke? who DOES know Thandi by name because of Michael Oversteegen and Helen Zilwicki's current assignment in her fleet?

I'm curious, what makes you think that whoever entered the system knows Thandi Palane by name? Or that Drescher is negotiating in order to save her own skin, as opposed to orders from her superiors?