How many Star Nations are there with Ships of the Wall?

nrellis wrote:Back to the main subject of this thread:

A couple of quotes (which I can't assign to an actual book) come to mind (and which I might be paraphrasing, or outright mis-quoting).

1- "approx 2/3rds of SDFs had nothing larger than LACs" (based on this, the SLN's view of SDFs as "second-string amateurs", is probably fairly reasonable)

2- "having even 1 squadron of the Wall put you in the top 10% or so of naval forces"

3- "counting the reseve the SLN had 11,000 SDs, discounting the 1000s more maintained by SDFs"" (this probably contradicts #1 above and definitely contradicts #2)

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From what we have seen, the following navies have a Wall of Battle (in order of numbers of "SDs"):

1- SLN *
2- RHN
3- RMN
4- IAN **
5- GSN (including Protector's Own Squadron) **

from this point on numbers become mere speculation, so are no longer in order

6- Erewhon
7- Beowulf
8- other members of the Manticoran Alliance
9- Mannerheim ***
10-other Rennaissance Factor navies
11-Mesan SDF (?)
12-Mesan Alignment Navy (none yet but building)
13-Maya Sector Navy (doesn't actually exist as a real navy yet, and doesn't have Wallers, but soon will)

* we know the Scientist class is defined as an SD but weighs only 6.8m tonnes, and would probably only be rated as a DN in any Haven Sector navy; the question of what exactly differeniates a DN from an SD is an entirely different question which I won't answer here
** 4 and 5 may be the other way around
*** the Mannerheim admiral's flagship is described as a DN but we don't know anything about it to judge what his navy's definition of a DN may be; it may be a locally modified variant of an SLN Scientist class


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Now to start inferring things:

-12 and 13 are "secret" navies and therefore shouldn't be considered in relation to quote #2 above
-from Albrecht Detweiler's thoughts, we know the RF navies are intended to form the bulk of the Allingnment's strength above and beyond the MAN, and therefore collectively will be larger than MAN

-the Royal Navy was so large in order to protect the British merchant navy (at least theoretically), or at least to patrol the shipping lanes through which the merchant navy sailed
-likewise one of the functions of the RMN is to power project in defence of the Manticoran merchant fleet
-Beowulf has a Wormhole and a large merchant fleet, and built (or bought) battle squadrons to defend them

-from these, we can infer (fairly safely) that SDFs with a Wall of Battle are the ones with a Wormhole and/or a large merchant fleet to defend
-if the RF SDFs are intended to provide the bulk of the Alignment's power it is likely they are amongst these navies (wny go to the trouble of subverting the governments of SL members who don't have large fleets and then suddenly building large navies for which no obvious rationale exists)

-Erewhon bought it's Wall of Battle from Solarian shipyards before it joined the Mainticoran Alliance and then Manticoran SDs before (only) very recently going to the trouble of building its own shipyards
-It is therefore likely that Beowulf and the RF worlds did similarly. They may have given the builders their own requirements for variations on the basic SLN designs, but the RF (especially) won't want SLN to have too much idea where their combat doctrine dictates great differences from SLN's "expert knowledge"; furthermore, what refits they carried out once they had the ships and what weapons they chose to put aboard them is entirely conjecture.

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Looking 10 years in the future, (IMO) the navies with a Wall of Battle will looks more like this (again in order of size):


1- RHN
2- RMN
3- RF collectively
4- MAN
5- IAN
6- GSN (they can't really afford the ones they have, and certainly can't afford to continue increasing their strength)
7- other GA members collectively
8- Erewhon
9- Maya Sector
10-Beowulf
11-other former League members

SLN will likely have none left, and probably won't even exist as a coherant entity.

nrellis wrote:Back to the main subject of this thread:

A couple of quotes (which I can't assign to an actual book) come to mind (and which I might be paraphrasing, or outright mis-quoting).

1- "approx 2/3rds of SDFs had nothing larger than LACs" (based on this, the SLN's view of SDFs as "second-string amateurs", is probably fairly reasonable)

2- "having even 1 squadron of the Wall put you in the top 10% or so of naval forces"

3- "counting the reseve the SLN had 11,000 SDs, discounting the 1000s more maintained by SDFs"" (this probably contradicts #1 above and definitely contradicts #2)

----------------------------

From what we have seen, the following navies have a Wall of Battle (in order of numbers of "SDs"):

1- SLN *
2- RHN
3- RMN
4- IAN **
5- GSN (including Protector's Own Squadron) **

from this point on numbers become mere speculation, so are no longer in order

6- Erewhon
7- Beowulf
8- other members of the Manticoran Alliance
9- Mannerheim ***
10-other Rennaissance Factor navies
11-Mesan SDF (?)
12-Mesan Alignment Navy (none yet but building)
13-Maya Sector Navy (doesn't actually exist as a real navy yet, and doesn't have Wallers, but soon will)

* we know the Scientist class is defined as an SD but weighs only 6.8m tonnes, and would probably only be rated as a DN in any Haven Sector navy; the question of what exactly differeniates a DN from an SD is an entirely different question which I won't answer here
** 4 and 5 may be the other way around
*** the Mannerheim admiral's flagship is described as a DN but we don't know anything about it to judge what his navy's definition of a DN may be; it may be a locally modified variant of an SLN Scientist class


------------------------------------------

Now to start inferring things:

-12 and 13 are "secret" navies and therefore shouldn't be considered in relation to quote #2 above
-from Albrecht Detweiler's thoughts, we know the RF navies are intended to form the bulk of the Allingnment's strength above and beyond the MAN, and therefore collectively will be larger than MAN

-the Royal Navy was so large in order to protect the British merchant navy (at least theoretically), or at least to patrol the shipping lanes through which the merchant navy sailed
-likewise one of the functions of the RMN is to power project in defence of the Manticoran merchant fleet
-Beowulf has a Wormhole and a large merchant fleet, and built (or bought) battle squadrons to defend them

-from these, we can infer (fairly safely) that SDFs with a Wall of Battle are the ones with a Wormhole and/or a large merchant fleet to defend
-if the RF SDFs are intended to provide the bulk of the Alignment's power it is likely they are amongst these navies (wny go to the trouble of subverting the governments of SL members who don't have large fleets and then suddenly building large navies for which no obvious rationale exists)

-Erewhon bought it's Wall of Battle from Solarian shipyards before it joined the Mainticoran Alliance and then Manticoran SDs before (only) very recently going to the trouble of building its own shipyards
-It is therefore likely that Beowulf and the RF worlds did similarly. They may have given the builders their own requirements for variations on the basic SLN designs, but the RF (especially) won't want SLN to have too much idea where their combat doctrine dictates great differences from SLN's "expert knowledge"; furthermore, what refits they carried out once they had the ships and what weapons they chose to put aboard them is entirely conjecture.

------------------------------------------

Looking 10 years in the future, (IMO) the navies with a Wall of Battle will looks more like this (again in order of size):


1- RHN
2- RMN
3- RF collectively
4- MAN
5- IAN
6- GSN (they can't really afford the ones they have, and certainly can't afford to continue increasing their strength)
7- other GA members collectively
8- Erewhon
9- Maya Sector
10-Beowulf
11-other former League members

SLN will likely have none left, and probably won't even exist as a coherant entity.

Theemile wrote:
SNIPPED ONLY 4 SPACE REASONS!

Additions to factors above

Erewhon bought somewhere between 12 and 20 SDs from Manticore (King Williams and Andurils) between the wars. Their original fleet size is unknown but they had 12 DNs participating in 8th fleet for Buttercup. Assuming they kept at least 12 ships at home, their pre-podnaught strength is in excess of 36 SDs (possibly as high as 55-60)

Talbot has a SD class shipyard and produced SDs for their navy during the 1st war (They never received Buttercup upgrades, which combined with High Ridge's foreign policy and Havenite diplomacy, Talbot decided to "take their SDs and go home" for the 2nd war. Most likely they are sitting on 1-2.5 squadrons of Gryphon/Sphinx analogues.

While never fully developed in the storyline, The Andermani are mentioned to have cast a weary eye on the Asgerd, which has been growing in their direction and threatening them from the SE. A Polity with 200 SDs and DNs does not get threatened by another polity without capitol ships in significant quantity. Most likely, they have 50+ - but there is no text-ev for this other thean the threat they pose.

nrellis wrote:
1- "approx 2/3rds of SDFs had nothing larger than LACs" (based on this, the SLN's view of SDFs as "second-string amateurs", is probably fairly reasonable)

2- "having even 1 squadron of the Wall put you in the top 10% or so of naval forces"

3- "counting the reseve the SLN had 11,000 SDs, discounting the 1000s more maintained by SDFs"" (this probably contradicts #1 above and definitely contradicts #2)

lyonheart wrote:Hi TheEmile,

Good points as always.

We may be misinterpreting the same data, but it was my impression that the Andermanni were looking at Asgard for future expansion, which is why Asgard welcomed the RMN so much, NTM the RMN termini guard had BC's at most when the BoMA alert came through.

Talbott's SD yards seemed to have been forgotten by RFC years ago, so I'm not sure its fair to drag them out again.

Erewhon's wall should be closer to your higher figure, IMO, so kudos again.

L

evilauthor wrote:

nrellis wrote:
1- "approx 2/3rds of SDFs had nothing larger than LACs" (based on this, the SLN's view of SDFs as "second-string amateurs", is probably fairly reasonable)

2- "having even 1 squadron of the Wall put you in the top 10% or so of naval forces"

3- "counting the reseve the SLN had 11,000 SDs, discounting the 1000s more maintained by SDFs"" (this probably contradicts #1 above and definitely contradicts #2)

Wait a sec...

According to the Honorverse Wiki, the Solarian League has 2000+ member worlds. Let's call it 2000 even for simplicity's sake.

Of those 2000, 1/3rd or 600-700 of them (call it 600, again for simplicity) has "more than LACs".

If we assume a minimum total of 3000 SDs being used by the SDFs and then spread them evenly between all 600 SDFs, then that means that each SDF has FIVE SDs, which doesn't look like an unreasonable number.

Of course, we know that Beowulf's SDF has 36 SDs, which is well above that 5 SD average. If other actual SD users have fleets of similar size, that leaves plenty of the 600 SDFs without any SDs at all, but the total number of SDs owned by all SDFs combined would still reach the thousand mark.

IOW, less than 100 SDFs out of 2000 actually need walls of battle the size of Beowulf's in order for there to be "thousands" of SDF SDs. That's less than 5% of the Solarian League members, well within being the "top TEN percent of all naval forces". That number seems entirely reasonable.

IOW, no contradiction at all.

SWM wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi TheEmile,

Good points as always.

We may be misinterpreting the same data, but it was my impression that the Andermanni were looking at Asgard for future expansion, which is why Asgard welcomed the RMN so much, NTM the RMN termini guard had BC's at most when the BoMA alert came through.

Talbott's SD yards seemed to have been forgotten by RFC years ago, so I'm not sure its fair to drag them out again.

Erewhon's wall should be closer to your higher figure, IMO, so kudos again.

L

Theemile was misremembering--he said Asgard but meant Midgard. The Andermani were concerned about Midgard's expansion. Midgard was not affiliated with Manticore, and clearly had some clout.

evilauthor wrote:If we assume a minimum total of 3000 SDs being used by the SDFs and then spread them evenly between all 600 SDFs, then that means that each SDF has FIVE SDs, which doesn't look like an unreasonable number.

Of course, we know that Beowulf's SDF has 36 SDs, which is well above that 5 SD average. If other actual SD users have fleets of similar size, that leaves plenty of the 600 SDFs without any SDs at all, but the total number of SDs owned by all SDFs combined would still reach the thousand mark.

Theemile wrote:

SWM wrote:Theemile was misremembering--he said Asgard but meant Midgard. The Andermani were concerned about Midgard's expansion. Midgard was not affiliated with Manticore, and clearly had some clout.

No, I meant Asgerd - Midgard is the area out beyond the IAE that the Asgerds are moving into, boxing the Andermani in. Manticore has the Matapan cluster on the opposite side of the Asgerds which is a similiar colonial situation, whose terminus was only covered by a Cruiser level defense forceduring 1st BoMA. The Asgerds have a 3 leg wormhole connecting the Matapan cluster, Midgard, and Durandel in IAE space with Asgerd.

Check out Sawa's map here:
http://honorverseglossary.wikispaces.com/file/view/Wallpaper_map_1440x900.png/364391038/Wallpaper_map_1440x900.png

"Gustav XI wouldn't mind getting a firm toehold in Basilisk, and he could figure we'd automatically jump to the conclusion that it was the Peeps. I can't quite see it, though, however hard I try. His attention is focused on Silesia right now, and he'd be worrying more about the Midgard Federation than us."

Theemile wrote:

evilauthor wrote:Wait a sec...

According to the Honorverse Wiki, the Solarian League has 2000+ member worlds. Let's call it 2000 even for simplicity's sake.

Of those 2000, 1/3rd or 600-700 of them (call it 600, again for simplicity) has "more than LACs".

If we assume a minimum total of 3000 SDs being used by the SDFs and then spread them evenly between all 600 SDFs, then that means that each SDF has FIVE SDs, which doesn't look like an unreasonable number.

Of course, we know that Beowulf's SDF has 36 SDs, which is well above that 5 SD average. If other actual SD users have fleets of similar size, that leaves plenty of the 600 SDFs without any SDs at all, but the total number of SDs owned by all SDFs combined would still reach the thousand mark.

IOW, less than 100 SDFs out of 2000 actually need walls of battle the size of Beowulf's in order for there to be "thousands" of SDF SDs. That's less than 5% of the Solarian League members, well within being the "top TEN percent of all naval forces". That number seems entirely reasonable.

IOW, no contradiction at all.

Yet we know that less then 25 navies and Defense Forces TOTAL can field squadrons of the wall. So MWWW has already ruled out that 100s of SDFs have dozens of SDs, the number has to be around 12 that have any significant accumulation of wallers.